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THIS TEACHER ROCKS! Entire Class Fails when Obama’s Socialism Experiment Fails

Wayne Dupree
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Wayne Dupree

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My name is Wayne Dupree or as most of you know me by, Newsninja2012. I am and have been committed to exposing the Democrats in a way that has been frowned upon by some conservatives and cheered by many more.
Wayne Dupree
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An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama’s socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The professor then said, “OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama’s plan”.. All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A…. (substituting grades for dollars – something closer to home and more readily understood by all).

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.

The second test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.  As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.

To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed. Could not be any simpler than that. (Please pass this on) These are possibly the 5 best sentences you’ll ever read and all applicable to this experiment:

  1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.
  2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
  3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
  4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!.
  5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.

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  1. thiswasafakepost

    Hilarious that you claim you are assassinating liberal lies with documented fact when you are posting articles you would have known were fake if you spent 3 minutes researching them.


    For the moral of the story, I give you an A+. Since this unsubstantiated story has been around economics for years, and I give you a D. For using famous quotes without attribution, you FAIL.

  3. slowhoa

    Karl Marx's dangerous theory born the  Socialism, that has to be thrown into the thrash bin,  not recycle bin. The communist movement killed more than 100 million people around the world since Lenin applies the socialism in Russia by the so-called" revolution on October 1917". Karl Marx, a dishonest, who received totally support income from Engels, a wealthy family in England, but Marx wrote the books condemned the" capitalism" and wanted to abolish all. How do you think someone receives your help, but they want to harm you?. Karl Marx wrong theory, predicted about the changing the world into socialism, it is the crazy ideology, couldn't accept into the human society, including his time, so Marx's funeral just had 8 people attended at Hyde in London, mostly family member plus Engels.
    Unfortunately, in the Western countries are still having the innocent scholars, academics, intellectuals, even though the national leaders, who have the nightmare about socialism, but they think its is good shape for society. The economic recession today that couldn't help the" working class" stand up then create" revolution" as Lenin, Mao Tse Tung, Ho Chi Minh, Kim Il Sung, Fidel Castro…did. Moreover, the low and uneducated people couldn't mange the national economy as Karl Marx promoted as the" human peak", but  at Russia, China, Vietnam, North Korea…they bad people named revolutionist have been granting the" license to kill".
    Nowadays, when the economy being crisis, the government collapsed, then people elect the other cabinet as Greece.
    In US, the top capitalist pattern, so the socialism to be allergy when someone else wants to impose the deadly social modern into the number one democratic country.
    While Russia, Eastern Europe communist Bloc abolished the socialism, but US president Barack Obama wants to apply into the US people…The socialism has no way to exit, let's see the all communist country, people would know the freedom being destroyed by the only government those control by communist party, a super gang and dishonest
    Hoa Minh Truong. A communist expert.
    ( author of 3 books: the dark journey, good evening Vietnam & from laborer to author)

  4. SalCottone

    Why are we even talking socialism, in this country in 2014, Is this why corperate l'america work hand and hand wit The peoples Republic of China, something happen while the masses slept, and consume thier thoughts and energy about BS like gun controll , Obamacareless and sales at Walmart?

  5. stopthatjunk

    the point still is well shown regardless of the stories distribution. Thanks for the wakeup and hope the criticism wakes up the thrashers.

  6. NotListeningToTheBS

    While the story may be fake, the lesson is very real.  I have seen in on a small scale. 
    I have seen this in community gardens and other socialist enterprises that have been started locally by, guess who?  Teachers.  Yes, the teachers that scramble children's brains with tripe being force fed by order of the state.  
    My true story is this:  I had a new renter move in across the street.  A husband and wife, educators, democrat voters and closet socialists.  They saw the shape of my garden (beautiful) and asked if I would participate in their "community garden" in a plot of land where the city allow them to grow foods. I declined for I know human nature.  They enlisted the help of many people.  In the beginning there was much help, preparing the property, soil, irrigation, etc. and the planting.  As time wore on and the work became more tedious and difficult, fewer people showed up to help and even fewer at harvest time but, all those that initially helped and did little else throughout the season wanted their "fair share" but wanted someone else to harvest it.  The educators took what they could eat, donated some and left the rest to rot on the vine because they were sick of doing all the work and people demanding more.
    Sound familiar?  Doubt me?  Try it yourself.

  7. benjipants

    Amer_Infidel thiswasafakepost Hm…Amer_Infidel, the person trying to make the 'point' to begin with has the burden of proving the point yes? I could make up a story about aliens being behind the assassination of JFK and then say "You have no proof that they weren't." That doesn't mean I win the argument.
    Also, just FYI, whomever wrote this story misunderstands the difference between socialism and communism. That's a point that can be settled with a dictionary.

  8. CynthiaSpeaks

    NotListeningToTheBS Then there are people like me whose "community organizing friend" invited me to participate in her community garden. This was a friends only garden on and on her property. 

    I helped with the initial planting and set up, but then lost interest and didn't help with weeding, pruning or watering. When it came time to harvest, she told me to help myself to whatever was there. My exact words to her were, "No thank you. I made a commitment to help with the garden and I didn't follow through. So I am not comfortable with taking what I didn't earn." She had to force me to take some of it home before it went to rot and frankly I felt guilty about it. I didn't earn it. 


  9. JoeCushing

    CynthiaSpeaks NotListeningToTheBS People often give away food from their gardens because gardens produce what they are going to produce and not what people are going to eat.  This is why she insisted that you take some.  You probably would have felt less guilty taking it if you had no roll in the garden at all.  One time, my parents were on vacation.  I harvested their cucumbers and gave them to 5 neighbors

  10. davidlandau

    Amer_Infidel thiswasafakepost   You are entitled to your own beliefs, this is America. You are not, however, entitled to your own facts.  The piece is titled THIS TEACHER ROCKS! and there is picture of a teacher, and the story concerns a class. There is no TEACHER, no CLASS… because this did not happen.  You can't complain about liberal media distortion and then support a story presented as true (On a site that claims "Assassinating Liberal Lies with Documented Facts" no less.) that is clearly false.

  11. davidlandau

    stopthatjunk It makes a GREAT point.  But do not present as something that actually happened when it is clearly a parable.   Do not have a site that claims to "Assassinate Liberal Lies With Documented Facts" and post a story that is not true.

  12. TomGordon1

    StephenZeigler mis-attribution. Lincoln didn't say that, -William J. H. Boetcker – (1873 – 1962) did. But it's a great quote nonetheless!

  13. TomGordon1

    StephenZeiglerskeeter799mis-attribution. Lincoln didn't say that, -William J. H. Boetcker – (1873 – 1962) did. But it's a great quote nonetheless!

  14. CynthiaSpeaks

    JoeCushing CynthiaSpeaks NotListeningToTheBS Thank you for the Kindergarten level education on garden production. it was unnecessary.

  15. ElizabethCohen

    davidlandau stopthatjunk I have only one word – RUSSIA, that sounds about right doesn't it.

  16. AmandaMathieson

    Even if this story was not fake, it is a massive oversimplification of real society. Over-simplified models are rarely accurate, you can see it in ecological models all the time.
    Lets look at a real social experiment: a pilot project in Namibia where an entire village were given a universal basic income wether they worked or not and anything they earned on top of that was extra. There was a reduction in child malnutrition and increased school attendance. There was also an increase in economic activity. Participants became more productive not less.

    People are not inherently lazy. They are demotivated, frustrated and restricted by a society that overvalues competition and has dire consequences for those that don't succeed.

    There's nothing wrong with having an incentive-based social system as long as it has a safety net that prevents people falling into poverty. Everyone has a right to a dignified existence.

  17. RonnieMParente

    The real message here is how people fail when this system is in place. This is no different than any other system that can be or is in place now. Humans will in the end ruin it. We will do our best to get as much of anything we find precious for as little actual work we can.Greed is our underlining flaw and instead of trying to trick this behavior so that everyone is productive in society (have yet to ever truly work) we should try to overcome this behavior.

  18. JohnMiguel

    The real message here is that they can take dumps on people on welfare, but that's not even a tenth of the welfare that was paid out in corporate bailouts, and the rich are outsourcing jobs and doing whatever they can to get rid of as many as possible.  He should of used his lesson plan on teaching them what happened with the banks.  Ignorant asshole.

  19. BeProudAmerica

    JohnMiguel Wow, are you that out of touch.  How ignorant can you be???  Yes, that would be another lesson on the corporate bailouts that DEMOCRAT congresses passed without support of Republcans.    But that is a whole different issue, if you can't see the lesson in this, then sir you need to pull your head out of the sand and open your eyes for a moment.

  20. ErikGruber

    This guy is clearly the worst economics teacher ever since he doesn't know the basic difference between socialism and communism. What he is describing is communism, not socialism.

  21. BrianPickell

    ErikGruber There is not much difference between socialism and communism. Once the Liberals figure that out this country would be a much better place.

  22. BrianPickell

    AmandaMathieson So are you saying you would still work your ass off for the exact same wage as someone who doesn't work at all?

  23. ErikGruber

    BrianPickell ErikGruber That's like saying there's not much difference between Canada and North Korea. There is an ENORMOUS difference. One is about how much service the government provides (socialism) and one is about everyone making the same amount of money. Socialism has prospered in many nations and communism has failed in all instances. There is a huge difference.

  24. ErikGruber

    BrianPickell For those who are obviously unclear, here is a very basic explanation of the difference: Socialism is government provided services (i.e. the snow plow that just drove past my house, the firetruck that aided saving lives in my town or the police officers that try to keep the peace) Communism is when the government declares that everyone will have the same amount of assets/income basically removing any reward system, resulting in the failure demonstrated in this analogy. Conservatives use these word interchangeable out of ignorance or to attached a larger negative connotation with it. They are only similar in that they end in "ism."

  25. ShannonMCarithers

    ErikGruber BrianPickell You forgot to add quite a few things to your socialism examples. Like welfare, Medicare, Social Security, section eight housing, etc.  Those things will be paid for by those that work hard for their money and have some of it taken away and given to someone else that has often not worked for any of it.  In many cases people have realized that they make more being on welfare than they would earn if they worked because in many cases they lack proper training and education.  Another social program is education benefits. They're offered at tax payer expense but far too few take advantage of that because through generations of laziness people have not cared to better themselves when they can be supported and not have to work for it.

  26. MicheleHenson

    ErikGruber Eric it's pretty clear that you liberals don't know the difference either! I don't know how you younger ones got so far astray to realities but 
    There is A REASON the American experiment was conceived, it's because thousands if years of failed socialist/Marxist/communist attempts have failed.
    Because of YOU morons – the message is lost in America already!!!

  27. MicheleHenson

    ErikGruber BrianPickell wrong!
    Socialism is owning part of the private sector; eliminating competition.
    Communism is government owning all of that sector.
    Your a douche & should vote & eff up our Country.
    You're a waste of airspace!

  28. ErikGruber

    ShannonMCarithers ErikGruber BrianPickell Undoubtedly there will always be social programs that are taken advantage by some. Agreed, in some state people probably do make more on welfare than they do a minimum wage job, because the minimum wage is not a living wage, so why would they work to get less? That's why the minimum wage needs to be addressed.

  29. ErikGruber

    MicheleHenson ErikGruber BrianPickell Doesn't necessarily eliminate competition, for instance there are still private schools. In some cases it just gives people a more affordable option.

  30. lisanne

    RonnieMParente I agree that greed should be overcome. BY LIBERALS. When will liberals ever learn this lesson and overcome their obsessive thirst for the wealth of others?

  31. ErikGruber

    MicheleHenson ErikGruber First of all, it's Erik*, just move your eyes like half an inch and read it. I do know the difference, as I've highlighted. I said the same thing you just said in different more layman terms with examples. I'm not wrong, we have tons of infrastructure, therefore socialism, but not communism. I think it's a common issue to lump socialism in with communism/marxism, and it's absolutely false. Countries like Canada, Sweden and France thrive under "Socialist" ideals whereas North Korea and the Former Soviet Union have collapsed or are on the verge of collapse under communism. I don't see where I've been wrong, if you highlight that I'd be happy to accept that I'm a moron who shouldn't vote, but until then, I think name calling is out of line and childish.

  32. Miniar

    I find it entertaining that this obvious piece of fiction is posted without reference or documentation under a website title that claims to assassinate liberal lies with "documented facts".

  33. GrahamTuttle

    ErikGruber MicheleHenson Look at the demographic makeup of the populations of those countries you described and then compare them to the US's. It works better in those countries because a larger percentage of the EDUCATED population contributes, whereas in the US a large percentage of the population has a victim and entitlement mentality and knows that they will be taken care of. It's not PC to call them out here, which is the real problem. Have 5 kids by age 20, and there will be no consequences for your actions, just more welfare and food stamp $.

  34. ErikGruber

    GrahamTuttle ErikGruber MicheleHenson First of all, the demographics in those countries aren't as different as we'd like to think (only 6% more african descent in the US vs. Canada). But that is fair to say that what works in other countries wouldn't necessarily work here. And they have a larger educated population because it more publicly funded.

  35. AmandaMathieson

    BrianPickell AmandaMathieson  

    Perhaps you don't understand what I mean when I say universal basic income.
    Its the idea that everyone would get a basic salary, regardless of who they are and whether they work or not. This salary would be high enough to pay for basic needs like food, rent, utility bills, health care and so on. 
    Then if you want to get a job to earn more money for non-essentials and luxuries, you can do that.
    However if you are happy living from a basic income and want to perform work which doesn't earn you any money, such as art, music, charity, community work and so on, then you can do all these things and contribute really important services to society that are currently undervalued. And you can do them without worrying about needing the time or the money to do these things.
    The majority of industries have become mechanised. We have to face facts that there are fewer and fewer jobs available. The only industry left with surplus jobs is the service industry, and with supermarkets adopting do-it-yourself checkouts and restaurants adopting computerised ordering systems, soon those jobs will be gone too.
    A universal income gives people the choice. Work for someone else to earn more money. Set up your own business without risk of destitution. Or perform some other role which doesn't earn money but has other rewards, things like charity and community work, which we vitally need but assume people should do these things in their spare time.
    We don't need more people flipping burgers at McDonalds or stocking shelves in supermarkets. We need innovators, new business, inventors, artists, musicians, social works and so on. It's not that people don't want to do it. Its that they are restricted by the need to fill an (often pointless) job in order to exist in any sort of dignified level.

  36. Misha0630

    So, you are saying that this "universal income" comes from where? If one has the choice not to work and still reap the benefits of all necessities being met, who makes the money for the "universal income" pot?

  37. Misha0630

    I agree… I feel that the car industry, the real estate industry AND the banking industry should have reaped what they had sown… Nothing will get better until it all crumbles to the ground in abject failure and begin anew…

  38. Misha0630

    The problem is when social benefits benefiting ALL are undercut by benefits awarded to SOME (i.e. welfare, Medicaid, etc. – and yes, even social security). When I lose the benefits of my contribution (snow plow, police force) and those benefits are directed to someone/something else based on need, it is called equalization (that nasty "c" word you disavow – communism)

  39. MichaelAlanCavalier

    OK, I am about as conservative as you want to be…but this is absolute HOG WASH.  No professor ever did this…EVER.  It's a story…a morality tale…but NOT based in fact.

  40. KevinSpruill

    "Can you think of a reason for not sharing this on Twitter or Facebook?"Of course… because it's a lie, but since you're not committed to exposing anything, just regurgitating right wing lies – I'd expect you to do nothing other than mindlessly repost this wayne. roflmao

  41. Misha0630

    But what many fail to realize is this… If minimum wages are increased, the cost of doing business increases. If the cost of doing business increases, the cost of living increases. If the cost of living increase is proportional to the minimum wage increase, did anyone benefit at all? What I am actually interpreting from the "pro-increase" camp is that they want corporations to STOP making so much money and start paying higher wages without increasing end-product costs… Again, you are trying to equalize (communism)… Remember: we all have a choice… We are offered education, but we make our own choices on what to do with said education… I could go to work flipping burgers for $7.50 an hour or I could choose to seek a better job with better pay. If I choose to accept a job at a specific pay (whether minimum wage or $40K per year or more), I AGREE to exchange my time and energy to provide a service for an AGREED UPON amount of money. It is irresponsible of me not to do the job I promised to do in exchange for the pay they promised to give me. If I feel that my services provided have increased and my pay received did not increase, then it is MY responsibility to ask for more money and (if that request is not granted), I then have a CHOICE to make: accept it as it is, look for another job (or train for a better job) WHILE holding the same underpaid position OR quit and pout at the "unfairness" of it all. But it is STILL first and foremost a CHOICE!

  42. KevinSpruill

    MicheleHenson ErikGruber  what kind of drugs are you on? "There is A REASON the American experiment was conceived, it's because thousands if years of failed socialist/Marxist/communist attempts have failed." 
    How about a little basic history — the "american experiment" began long before socialism or communism as you poorly describe and conflate them existed. geez… 
    please educate yourself a wee bit more Michele… lol

  43. KevinSpruill

    GrahamTuttle ErikGruber MicheleHenson graham, dog whistel appeals aside… you do realize that there are more non minorities on welfare than minorities right? and that a large number of those receiving assistance these days are unemployed white collar workers? roflmao…

  44. Misha0630

    Greed is NOT the problem… (And by the way what your consider greedy is perception, not truth). COVETING (or wanting) something that SOMEONE ELSE has worked for is the problem… I do not feel Bill Gates and Microsoft or that the departed Steve Jobs and Apple are greedy, or even General Motors and Bank of America. All created a product that was conceived, developed, produced, marketed and eventually sold… And please let me remind you that it was sold to a market that LOVED their product and gobbled it up for an AGREED UPON PRICE! They were smart. Some continue to be smart. SOME businesses got STUPID when they got to the top, yes… Like Bank of America… And the financial industry with their "no doc" and high-risk loans… They took a stupid gamble and they lost big-time… But did they "put one over" on the common man? Did they make someone sign an adjustable-rate loan with a 10% balloon? No! The "poor, taken-advantage of" working man CHOSE not to read the fine print and CHOSE not to do his/her research and CHOSE not to look at worst case scenarios. So the banks gambled and lost to their own ineptitude (and SHOULD NOT have been bailed out) and the home-owners gambled and lost to THEIR own ineptitude, as well (and should not have been bailed out either with HARP or any other program)… GM… Their idiocy came in the form of ever increasing union demands.., the unions demanded (hmmm $75+ an hour for an assembly line worker, no lay-offs during slowed production and fully paid health insurance… Talk about greed), GM agreed (stupidity) and no one made contingencies for worst-case scenarios… What if the economy tanks? What if cars got so crappy and, at the same time, so expensive that no one wanted to buy them? But they agreed to everything… And both sides should have lost in the end of that battle, as well… But, with that great equalization word (communism), lets give tax dollars to bail them out… Nope they should have reaped the consequences of their actions, as well… When NO ONE has to be responsible for their own actions and EVERYONE looks to the government to "save them" guess what we have, guys? A government that has been given PERMISSION BY ITS OWN PEOPLE to make each and every decision for those people! Or… COMMUNISM in the guise of SOCIALISM.

  45. Misha0630

    I know I've commented quite a bit throughout this thread and it's not even in defense or condemnation of the original article, but please remember one thing… Our government does not MAKE money, the people (you) make money… The government does not CREATE jobs, either… When a politician speaks of "job creation" as their platform, guess how they intend on doing it? By offering those great, big, bad corporations (that liberals hate so much) great big tax credits for hiring more people (whether they need the employees or not)… So guess what that gives us… Go on, guess! It gives us great big corporations getting great big tax credits paying too many people minimum wage with no room for future advancement. But, guess what? Jobs were created!!! NOW! We have those SAME EXACT people that received those minimum wage jobs jumping up and down screaming and crying that they aren't getting paid enough or getting promoted and it's the great, big, bad corporations fault because they are greedy and getting tons of tax breaks! But, hey! It's not the politicians fault… He "created" jobs as promised!
    Please remember… Most politicians are concentrating so hard on KEEPING THEIR JOB (and all the self awarded-perks that go with it), that very few ever ACTUALLY do their job. Capitalism and corporate America are not the problem… The people (with their victim attitudes) and the politicians (partisanship, self-interest and "we exempt ourselves from the laws of the people we represent") are the problem…
    Work the problem… By evaluating YOUR thoughts, attitudes and perceptions, first… and then through those we elect.

  46. ErikGruber

    Misha0630 I understand, but if we don't raise the minimum wage to living wage then there's really no point to having a minimum wage at all. Not to mention that the minimum wage has not kept up with the rate of inflation so it's not as if we're suddenly kick starting inflation. It's not as if it's easy to find a better paying job if you just decide you're not being paid enough. And some people do not have the means to get educated. An education cost a lot of money in our country, as I'm more than aware of. The cost of higher education has exploded. It's not as accessible as some of us think. Minimum wage isn't an "equalizer" it's a regulation to ensure to take some of the burden off of taxpayers for welfare and other entitlement programs. Just like other workplace regulation like 40 hour weeks and worker safety.

  47. JayJayHaskins

    ErikGruberMisha0630 Sorry, a FREE education is pretty easy to get in this country.  Or, you can get the $$ and pay it back.  I take that back, and education isn't easy; you have to work for it.  I believe in NO minimum wage.  People take what is offered and the illegals will leave.

  48. JayJayHaskins

    KevinSpruillMicheleHensonErikGruber Kevin, you are the one on drugs.  Do you know when "Utopia" was written?

  49. JayJayHaskins

    If there is a huge difference between communism and socialism, who cares?  They are both wacko, un-American systems.  It is scary that pop culture is bringing up Socialism/Communism and the young people who don't understand them, think they are good ideas.

  50. JayJayHaskins

    ErikGruberBrianPickell So, you really mean that Communism is just a few steps down from Socialism?  Please cite all of the fabulous successes with Socialism, Mr. Gruber.

  51. JayJayHaskins

    ErikGruberShannonMCarithersBrianPickell No, we need to give LESS assistance than minimum wage provides.

  52. Misha0630

    It is no one's responsibility to motivate ANYONE but themselves. Why do so many feel that it is someone else's job to motivate them? I didn't go to college out of high school.., and guess what, I didn't expect to get paid like I had. I got married and had children young. We didn't make much money. I didn't work before the first child was school-aged because we couldn't afford day care on minimum wage. We barely survived… We didn't have cable and the power was under constant threat of being cut off for non-payment. I was there… But NEVER once did I EVER blame "the Man" or the government or the 1%. At each and every point of my adult life, I was in ANY given situation based on MY individual choices (whether previous choices or immediate choices).
    My sincerest wish is for each person to understand that EVERYTHING THEY DO IS A CHOICE… And each and every choice that an individual makes has a consequence (good or bad). And then, again, each must choose how to act or react based on our evaluation of the outcome from previous choices. Someone CHOOSES to blame everyone else and say that no one has ever been there to motivated them… That is a choice… It's a choice to pass the buck and to continue to be the victim. I will give someone a place to shower and a set of clothes and drive them around to put in job applications any day of the week and twice on Sunday (and I have)… But, don't you ever expect me to give my hard earned money to someone that doesn't work because "they never had anyone to motivate them".
    As far as the right to a dignified existence… No one has denied them that right but themselves… Use the social programs for what they're there for… A pit-stop and assistance while pulling yourself back up. Take the free rent , but get that minimum wage job (and start incrementally paying a larger portion of rent) and then start working towards a better job and then a better home… Don't squat in public housing (an industry in which I work and am intimately familiar) and say, "why should I work and pay for housing when I can stay here and watch soaps all day for free?" And then proceed to blame "the Man" for keeping you down? I see it and hear it every single day.

  53. ErikGruber

    JayJayHaskins ErikGruber Misha0630 It actually isn't very easy to get a free college education. Student loan debt is a major drag on our economy, there are tons of new grads that even if they do find jobs they are squashed by debt, even with scholarships.

  54. ErikGruber

    JayJayHaskins ErikGruber BrianPickell I don't think communism and socialism are even close. Socialism has succeeded in Canada and most of Europe.

  55. Misha0630

    I agree with you @JayJay, I am going to school as a "true freshman" for the first time at 42. I can't afford tuition, out of pocket, but I am taking out loans… It's an investment I'm willing to make. And please note (this is to the 99%'s), I am NOT getting a degree in Liberal Arts or Anthropology or any other field in which my degree may have little or no value. And if I have difficulties finding a position in my degree field after graduation, I will work that much harder at looking. I will not blame someone for "not giving me a shot" and I won't blame anyone for "ageism" (I'll be at least 46 when I graduate). And believe me… I'm not the best credit risk at this moment… 2012 saw the end my 22 year marriage (not my choice) and an exponential drop in my "accustomed" income (and an ex that didn't assist with any joint bills when he left)… But, I did not take any alimony and vowed to work hard to improve my standard of living. And even with my much lower credit score and a much smaller single-person full-time income, I am going back to school on student loans (tomorrow, in fact).

  56. guynoir

    The only things missing from this article are the documented facts. 

    What college?
    What professor?
    What class? 

  57. ErikGruber

    Misha0630 I'm happy to hear you're taking the education plunge, regardless of your age. It is a good investment no matter what. I will say that my student loan debt is crippling and I'm pretty successful in my field only my second year out of school. Sure, student loans are accessible, but they can have a damning effect after school regardless of how wise your decisions are.

  58. ErikGruber

    guynoir Apparently an economics class, which makes no sense since he would know the difference between socialism and communism.

  59. Misha0630

    @ErikGruber My question is this, do you really think that McDonalds will have a viable business model if they increase their starting pay to $10, $12 or $15 per hour? Are you going to pay $13 for that SuperSized #7? Companies are not going to give up that profit margin so, in the end, it will be passed onto to end consumer, you and me. Now, maybe you don't like McDonalds… But a many, many more are going to stop liking McDonalds at $13 per "value" meal… Then what happens? Business slows, franchises close and workers are laid off, unemployment grows, defeating the original purpose altogether… But, guess who gets blamed? it's certainly not going to be the politicians that required the increase in minimum wage. And it certainly won't be the person getting paid $12 an hour with no other viable or contributal skill other than pulling fries or flipping a burger. One should get paid in accordance with the skills required to do the job.
    And let's take big, bad corporate America out of the equation… What about the millions of small business that make up the majority of our jobs and economy… Could they sustain that type of expense without passing that coat onto their customers… We aren't talk multi-billion corporations with insane profit margins… We're talking private ownership by those just trying to make a good life for themselves and a decent job for their employees… How many business doors would be shuttered?
    As to education… If one works diligently and applies oneself (or, in other words, self-motivated) in the public school system (available to everyone), he/she has a plethora of opportunities to receive a free or drastically discounted college education. Most states have a state award, not to mention scholarships and grants, especially for those from lower incomes. But, it all comes down to choices and self-motivation… How badly do you want it and how hard are you willing to work?

  60. rtwh

    KevinSpruill True or not true it is still a fact of life and what happens when people have incentive to work. The same will happen with ACA as people not paying for their own health care will not take care of themselves and will go to the doctor more often thus increasing cost.

  61. ErikGruber

    Misha0630 The price of their meals has continually gone up while the minimum wage stays the same. It's not like that's the only factor in what they charge for their value meals. And as far as small businesses, 90% of small business pay higher than minimum wage to their entry level employees, so it's not these people that would be most affected by this. Should we continue to ignore that the minimum wage isn't a living wage so that we don't risk paying more for our big macs?
    Agreed that there awards available to them, but the rate at which the cost education is rising is not equal to amount of aide being provided/offered.

  62. slowhoa

    The socialism appliance of China failed since 1949 to 1972. From US President Richard Nixon visited, the communist regime has changed the way for economy as lizard changes skin, but they have never give up the communist. On the other hand, the capitalist rescued socialism, if not China couldn't develop as today, they become the second largest economical center in the world.
    Despite China  recognized the socialism has no way to promote the economy growth, but they don't want to lose the dictatorial government, so China and also Vietnam apply an ugly economic pattern:" free market leads by socialism". Indeed, China's development is just better for the cities, but the countryside being poor and some where else are still using the buffalo for farming.
    The socialism produces the red capitalist, the communist members do nothing, but the earn so much wealthy, then in China, a former premier Wen Jiabao has the asset estimates up to $ 2,7 billion USD, likely in Vietnam, a none people elected prime minister Nguyen Tan Dung who has the asset about $ 1,8 billion USD….The socialist leaders are the robber, the squeeze the sweat of people likely in communist countries. 
    I know very well the socialism in Vietnam, after Vietcong took over the south on April 30, 1975. I knew a high ranking cadre of communist, Mr, Nguyen Ho, 56 years membership told to his comrades at Saigon:" their house, we occupy-their wife, we take-their children, we enslave"…( if some one want to know more about the socialism, please read my first book:" the dark journey: inside the reeducation camps of Vietcong", I wrote as a communist expert and lived in the communist paradise..).
    People in socialism regime have no right to speak, their life controlled by bandit, communist party, in the human history, Karl Marx is the greatest master mind killer, his theory has created the crime more than Hitler.

  63. brucemcintyre

    First of all, this article is bullshit… Obama is not a socialist, and he doesn't make the laws anyway.  This is just another way of saying that the rich deserve everything and the rest of us should be grateful for any crumbs that fall down.

    Who paid for the highways? Who pays for the Military? Who pays to keep the banks just a little honest? Who pays to make sure our food doesn't kill us? Who pays to make sure that airplanes don't fall out of the sky? Who paid for the schools, the police, the fireman, the sidewalks, the streetlights, the national parks.

    We all do.  Is that socialism?

    In the same way, I collect social security.  Is that socialism?  Hell no, it's my money that I paid in over a period of many years, plus interest from the government.

    Let's look at your sentences.

    1. Yes you can.. During the administration of Ike, the top marginal tax rate was over 90%.  And the rich still got richer.
    2. So the unemployed (since there are no damn jobs) and the disabled should just go die?  As a matter of fact, in our consumer-driven economy, if that happened unemployement in this country would still go way up.And then ONLY the very rich (who are insulated from the economy) would get money.
    3. While this statement is true, it is overly simplistic.  If only the very rich can afford healthcare, then only the very rich will get healthcare.  If only the very rich can afford a road, then only the very rich will have a road. This is a self-evident asinine statement.  We all pay, and we all benefit.  And why is it that all of the deep red states that are so upset with the "takers" are the states that receive far more in "government" money than the blue states that the red states hate, which give far more money to the government than they take?
    4. Yes you can multiply wealth by dividing it.  The GOP wants to cut off any extension of unemployment benefits to 1.2 million people.  What will happen because of this is that between 200,000 and 300,000 other people will lose their jobs. If people don't have any money, they can'buy stuff.  If they can't buy stuff, then the people that sell the stuff, truck the stuff, make the stuff, and make the stuff that the stuff is made from lose their jobs also.
    5. This sort of exaggeration is totally false.  We do not live in a socialistic state.  Nor do we live in a totally capitalistic state.  There is a balance.  Will there every be people that abuse the system? Sure.  But most people (including you and I) would rather work..   But listen to this.  If Walmart and other companies that pay far less than a living wage, then these people will either starve or the government will find a way to help and feed them.  So you and I are subsidizing the mega corporations.  This is socialism in reverse.  Why is it that 1 in 4 American corporations pay NO income tax?  It's not because they didn't make any money.  So you and I are paying for the rich to get richer and richer, while the rich keep telling you that those darn poor are taking your money.

    If you believe these fantasies, you deserve the result.

  64. brucemcintyre

    slowhoa You conflate Socialism with Communism. They are not the same. You want to look at a modern socialist state, look at Norway and Sweden.  People live better, eat better, get better healthcare for less money, get a free education.  

    If you want to look at a pure capitalist state, try Somalia.  No government, no healthcare, no food, no industry, but the rich get richer and richer.  If you want a government controlled by religion, go to Saudi Arabia. The rich (men) get everything.  No-one else has any rights and lives at the whim of the "government" which is the king and his cronies.

    Your comments are simplistic and inaccurate.

  65. brucemcintyre

    JayJayHaskins It seems that you don't understand the difference either.  Modern socialistic states are very successful for everyone. I'm no 'youngster' but I do know the difference between a plutocracy and socialism.  What we have here in the US is not democracy, not even a republic.  We have a plutocracy, a government of the rich, by the rich, and for the rich. No one else should apply.

  66. Misha0630

    @ErikGruber (for some reason it's not highlighting my tags): minimum wage hasn't stayed the same… And if we take the minimum wage in 1938 of 25 cents and adjust it for inflation to 2013, it would only come to $4.13 (yet it's at a national minimum of $7.25 and increase from there based state and local requirements) . Inflation is not to blame, cost of living is. Yes, some small businesses pay more, but still beneath the proposed $10-12 minimum wage range that are being tossed around.
    I am not proposing to keep wages lower to defend being able to afford the occasional Big Mac.., I am saying that, as a whole, ALL prices will increase (including, milk, bread, gas, housing, underwear, notebook paper, etc.). Prices will go up because wages will go up. note that 26% of all private sector jobs would be getting a raise if the minimum wage is raised to $10 an hour – National Employment Law Project (2011), and these jobs are concentrated in industries where low-wage workers make up a substantial share of the entire workforce (mostly retail, accommodation, and food service). Again, I repeat that one should be paid according to the skill one delivers. No one is OWED a job, one EARNS a job and then one must perform the work to KEEP the job.
    Now, with more than 25% of the entire country getting a raise, prices on EVERYTHING will also rise substantially (not just the Big Mac, but your cable bill and movie theater tickets – and don't forget the aforementioned bread, milk and gas), not to mention almost ALL hiring will come to a standstill). EVERYONE'S discretionary dollars will now be substantially decreased and must be fought over by ALL existing business (like McDonalds and Regal Cinemas – remember, these are the places that employ this demographic). Now, the $10 workers don't have any discretionary income and are still falling behind because prices are rising. The middle class is also squeezed with higher prices and those that were barely making it before are now starting to slip behind (maybe they were already making $10-$15 before the wage increase), but in any case, they've also lost quite a bit of discretionary dollars. So, now we have over 3/4 of the country's population deciding on making dinners at home instead of eating out (food service), staying at home for vacations because it's too expensive to travel (accommodation), and spending more cautiously and thriftily on everything else (retail). With the diminished spending in industries that employ this many lower-skilled, lower-waged workers, it stands to reason that many, many businesses will be closing (at worst) and laying off a great many (at best). Are we better off than before? Now we have a great number of people unemployed and a large number of businesses closing. Now, social assistance programs are increasing exponentially, placing an additional burden on the country… I could continue… But the outlook continues to darken… Creating a "simple" solution of "raising the minimum wage" doesn't seem so simple in the long run… But, hey, that would be yet ANOTHER administrations problem… Wouldn't it?
    In a nutshell… I disagree with paying someone $10 an hour if they are not providing a service that should be valued at $10 an hour.

  67. PamSmith4

    brucemcintyre JayJayHaskins don't forget Australia, it's a wondeful place to live and as an American who lived in Australia can testify to their way of life and free health care, education etc etc.   Unfortunatley,  not a lot of Americans can live overseas to get a true appreciation of the way of life, therefor they're forced to believe what they're told by US politics.

  68. hck

    brucemcintyre Opening an attempt at argument with "it's BS" is a classic logic fallacy.  It is designed to invoke knee-jerk reactions and demonstrates the fallacy of the remainder of your argument.
    Yes, Social Security is socialistic.  Socialism, no, socialistic, YES.
    No, roads, highways, etc. are NOT socialistic _OR_ socialism, but part of the "promote the GENERAL welfare" preamble to the Constitution.
    The Constitution does not guarantee or promise INDIVIDUAL welfare, nor did the Declaration of Independence.
    Nearly every person I have known who was laid off and started going on unemployment treated it as a paid vacation.  They only seriously started seeking gainful employment when their benefits neared expiration.
    As for your uber-fallacy of "you and I are subsidizing the mega corporations", no, you are not.  THE CORPORATIONS ARE SUBSIDIZING YOU.
    They don't HAVE to hire you.  They can hire anyone they want.  If you don't want the job, DON'T FREAKING TAKE IT.
    And why is it that 1 in 4 corporations pay no income tax???
    Have you ever dug up statistics for yourself instead of REGURGITATING bogus (means fake) statistics abused by the liberal-left???
    The number of small corporations outweighs the large corporations.  And the majority of them MAKE NO PROFIT, and pay no taxes.
    Your statistic is one of the "false truths" force-fed by the liberal-left to their blindly-accepting followers.  Yeah, it's true.  NO IT DOES NOT MEAN WHAT THEY SAY IT MEANS.

  69. slowhoa

    You couldn't compare between the health care system of US and Australia or the others country in Europe. Us population is 300 million, and Australia is 23 million.

  70. slowhoa

    brucemcintyre slowhoa In US or any democratic country, the socialist couldn't apply the Karl Marx theory likely in the communist regime with" capitalist beaten" that follows the killing and robbing, plus enslave people. However, the tax and social reform are the" capitalist beaten". In Australia, under the first female prime minister, miss Julia Gillard, she declared herself as socialist, then she beat people by carbon tax, that harms for economy, it has became the controversy and her part lost election in 2013. ( carbon tax, asylum seeker are the main subject for election on September 7, 2013).
    The socialist and communist are the same from radical theory of Karl Marx, but they have to exercise as the different way, however the purpose is the same. After Karl Marx devised the socialism, his pupils in Europe have to use the socially left wing party, they couldn't do the same way in Russia, China…

  71. fah451bks

    absolute nonsense even the premise that all will be equal in a socialist economy for an unequal effort doesn't apply in any socialist system the rewards are still based on production, labor, quality and results what idiots who wrote this crap! I will give you abetter example the somewhat Socialist team profit plan for the NFL all the revenues from all the NFLs teams profits go into one pie and are split up equally so all the teams can afford to play on a level economic playing field irregardless of a single seasons results This helps maintain Quality performance and presentation of the sport Having any problems with the NFL's results lately I don't think so, are players all paid the same I don't think so.

  72. AubreyDurkin

    Sweetie, your point would be much more well-received if you adhered to common principles of using the English language.  You cannot equate the division of wealth within ONE career to the same principle across a huge range of occupations.  Why would I want to finish my PhD when I can slough off (they call it social loafing) and get paid the same to flip burgers? There is a reason behind capitalism.  The proverbial carrot in front of your face helps to separate the wheat from the chaff, the sugar from the crap. I do believe there are problems within the system, but socialism would probably mean no more doctors, no more businesses, etc. For example, I worked hard in my English Honors classes…apparently you did not.  We would clearly not earn the same grade in a fair system.  In a socialist system, we would get the same grade…I would eventually entertain the idea of not working very hard.  Hell, it doesn't matter how hard I work anymore.  The fact is that the nation needs people who excel at something, and a proportional reward for it.  It would not take long to see this effect as people would decide to become social sponges in masses.  The article raises a very good point and was a great case study to drive the point home.  If you cannot see that, YOU are part of the problem.

  73. nomad_newyork

    hck brucemcintyre Interesting that you should bring up "false truths" on such an obviously fake article. Let's have the author come back with sources, with the name of the professor, the school, anything that makes this story more than a right wing wet dream fable.

  74. nomad_newyork

    AubreyDurkin Interesting. I see that you understand Socialism well.  
    I am not a socialist and do not particularly understand it. I did not realize that in socialism everyone gets the same grade and the same pay regardless of whether or not they are flipping burgers or are physicians. Is it true that there would be no doctors in a Socialist Country? Are there any Socialist countries that we could look at to back up your thesis? Is the same true for a Communist country? Are there doctors in China? People with PhD's or do they all just sit around flipping burgers all day? If there are no businesses, how does their economy work, like how do they have so much money to lend the United States? I would love to see some sources on this. Thanks.

  75. PattyAnn1

    Misha0630 social security is not an AWARD!!!! It is an insurance we work for all our lives in case we become disabled or we retire and do not get a pension.NO WORK NO SOCIAL SECURITY SO SCREW YOU!

  76. PattyAnn1

    Misha0630 (CLAP,CLAP,CLAP) BRAVO,BRAVO Look at you your being a grown up,good for you!!!!! You want a medal or something????

  77. MikeMartin2

    ErikGruberShannonMCarithersBrianPickell Raising the minimum wage isn't the answer.  Going to college, educating yourself makes more sense.

  78. DanielMitchell1

    brucemcintyre Actually, the police, schools, fire fighters etc. are a great example of Socialism.  We all pitch in and everyone benefits.

  79. chicocdm

    nomad_newyork If you need more sources study the death toll around China, North Korea, USSR, Cambodia, Germany, Cuba….Marxism and Socialism are more dangerous than smoking or cancer and is far more preventable. The only difference between Marxism and Socialism is one wants to accomplish it through voting the other through armed revolution. Same horrific results. Death, destruction and mass poverty.

  80. PattyAnn1


  81. chicocdm

    SeanMcAlpin You don't need snoopes or this classroom example to see that Marxism and Socialism are so horribly wrong and disastrous that only people who ignore its catastrophic results are foolish enough to try it again.  You are better off taking up smoking than these destructive ideologies.  Yes!  When fully implemented the death toll is worse than smoking or cancer with just the USSR as an example.

  82. chicocdm

    DanielMitchell1 NO! Those are NOT examples of socialism. Medicare, SS, Obamacare – those are actual socialism, social engineering designed to transfer wealth and have politicians decide who fails and who succeeds.  Having a fire department, a police force and basic services to function are NOT socialism. Cut out this nonsense. Nothing is more dangerous than this ideology that America has been able to keep at bay for so long. Lets not become North Korea, China, Cuba, Cambodia etc. This stuff creates the greatest poverty and loss of human life the earth has ever seen. Its not an innocent thing and its well documented.

  83. Speeddymon

    Basic scientific research always benefits from repeat tests and larger sample sizes, as well as being more closely matched to reality. A classroom setting substituting grades for dollars does not reflect the realities of the econommy. The fact of the matter is that right now, the top 1% has more than the bottom 80% combined, and the legislation being passed it meant to "re-distribute" to the lower 80% in order to balance out the top 20% more evenly. The middle class isn't the ones getting screwed so hard, which is why the upper class is so against it that they have to trumpet it into the middle classes collective heads.

    Unfortunately my message will fall on mostly deaf eaars.

  84. JoelStoner

    The only difference between Socialism and Communism is that in Socialism everyone owns everything, and in Communism the government owns everything. Neither of which has ever worked in the long term, eventually they fall apart.

    Many people also cry about Democracy, without really knowing the true meaning of Democracy. A true democracy is everyone voting on everything. You want to build something, your neighbors vote on whether or not you can do it.

    I see so many people trying to sound smart defending socialism, communism, and democracy. When it is obvious that they did not pay attention in history class. Your college professors who told you socialism, communism, or democracy work… well those who can do, and those who can't teach.

    Do not comment on this unless you are willing to provide real facts, as i do not want to hear you cry when i produce facts.

  85. JeffWalters1

    nomad_newyorkAubreyDurkin Obviously there are Doctors in Socialist and Communist Nations. It's just that since the Government limits their financial reward, they are not the best and the brightest like you have in free market economies. Here are a couple of links to some information on the quality of care here as opposed to the rest of the World.

    If you care to take the time to wade through all this information I think you will come to the conclusion that the U.S. has the best health care system, but not necessarily the best health outcomes. This is partly due to our unhealthy lifestyles including poor eating habits. Our poor diet and the epidemic of obesity in the U.S. are at least partially attributable to the Government agencies that regulate our food supply. They are the ones who allow the use of high fructose corn syrup to sweeten almost everything. What isn't sweetened with that garbage is sweetened with dangerous "low-calorie" chemical sweeteners. And almost all of our meat comes from animals that are fed an unnatural diet high in corn and other starches designed to make the animals fatter and the meat more marbled, not to mention the high doses of antibiotics they are fed. Some of these studies also tried to equate smoking as a factor that causes us to fare poorer, but I discount that because I think smoking rates in other Countries are probably equal to or higher than in the U.S.

  86. cadlebe

    Sources? Documentation? Name of the college? Name of the professor? This is absolutely terrible writing. I will not even venture to say that this is bad journalism, it would have to be journalism before I could label it as bad. Do us all a favor, the next time you write something site your sources and your documentation like the professional you are pretending to be.

  87. nomad_newyork

    JeffWalters1 nomad_newyork AubreyDurkin Well, it's good to know that there are doctors in China.
    Thank you so much for sharing so many FACTS with me. I will take a look at some of those links.

  88. nomad_newyork

    chicocdm That's not what I asked. I imagine the death toll would be very high if there are no doctors though. Thanks.

  89. nomad_newyork

    ErikGruber GrahamTuttle MicheleHenson A large percentage of the population is educated because education is extremely cheap or even free?

  90. nomad_newyork

    KevinSpruill MicheleHenson ErikGruber THOUSANDS of years. THOUSANDS!  Utopia? That place where everyone had two slaves?

  91. ErikGruber

    MikeMartin2 ErikGruber ShannonMCarithers BrianPickell That is an answer, unfortunately it is becoming less of an attainable one due to the skyrocketing cost.

  92. Public123

    BobYoung1 A statement is not true just because you say it is. Nor can it be spot on to anything if nothing is cited. 
    [citation needed]

  93. albertagirl

    Misha0630 I am in Canada and my daughter worked for Macdonalds last summer at the age of 14. She was earning just over 10 dollars an hour. As a mature adult with the life experience I have, I am quite confident I would be hired on no less then 12 an hour. What you need to ask yourself with the profits Macdonalds earn..How can they afford to offer livable wages in other countries and yet not the country they originate and earned the ability to expand from. I can say the same for Walmart here as well. They do not pay a livable wage in most States mainly because in some states it is harder to get a job at Macdonalds then it is to get into Harvard for a better education. They do not pay a livable wage simply because they can. The Gov't needs to flip the rules in favor of the corp's and absolutely balance them to meet the needs of the many as appose to the wants of the few. I am sure we all know who the many and who the few are. In all my young years working minimum wage jobs have I ever needed the help of gov't to live or even get by. Those day's are gone. Why? The rules are far to unbalanced. Enough with the socialism propaganda. We are a socially conscience people. This is why people of other countries look up to us, want to be like us, and want what we have. This fear of prices shooting through the roof or stores closing is absolutely a myth. To pay a livable wage will hardly put a dent in there "billions per year" profits. And if that were the case, ask yourself again how and why do they keep building more and more mega stores here?

  94. albertagirl

    I am in Canada and my daughter worked for Macdonalds last summer at the age of 14. She was earning just over 10 dollars an hour. As a mature adult with the life experience I have, I am quite confident I would be hired on no less then 12 an hour. What you need to ask yourself with the profits Macdonalds earn..How can they afford to offer livable wages in other countries and yet not the country they originate and earned the ability to expand from. I can say the same for Walmart here as well. They do not pay a livable wage in most States mainly because in some states it is harder to get a job at Macdonalds then it is to get into Harvard for a better education. They do not pay a livable wage simply because they can. The Gov't needs to flip the rules in favor of the corp's and absolutely balance them to meet the needs of the many as appose to the wants of the few. I am sure we all know who the many and who the few are. In all my young years working minimum wage jobs have I ever needed the help of gov't to live or even get by. Those day's are gone. Why? The rules are far to unbalanced. Enough with the socialism propaganda. We are a socially conscience people. This is why people of other countries look up to us, want to be like us, and want what we have. This fear of prices shooting through the roof or stores closing is absolutely a myth. To pay a livable wage will hardly put a dent in there "billions per year" profits. And if that were the case, ask yourself again how and why do they keep building more and more mega stores here?

  95. albertagirl

    I found this, it is very recent and should you have the time, take a read.Obama the socialist ?
    Posted by&nbsp ; in
    ≈&nbsp ;
    Tags, …
    So recently I’ve been hearing a lot about how Barack Obama is the world’s newest socialist dictator. Mainly because of his new Obamacare (Affordable Healthcare Act) policy, wild assertions and allegations have been shooting off left, right and centre – just proving how much ignorance exists in America.
    I’m a British citizen, with a pretty good grasp of politics, and compared to our government, Obama is no where near socialism – maybe because society doesn’t let him go near it, or because he’s actually not as liberal as people claim.
    In the UK we had a welfare system created by Clement Attlee’s Labour government between 1945 – 1951. In this year the NHS (National Heath Service) was created, giving every British citizen the right to free healthcare. Why? Not because he wanted to destroy the capitalist system, or because he was a Communist (whatever that means nowadays), but because he believed that the country would strive more if workers were healthy, and that nobody deserved to die because of their financial situation. He also believed in Keynesian economics – that in order for the economy to prosper, you must feed more money into the economy – you must create jobs, protect workers and consequently strengthen industry.
    At the time this set the foundations for real socialism in the UK – and at the time the Labour party was a sort-of socialist party (unlike today, where they’re quite central/right-wing).
    In America everything was different – people believed, and still believe, in ‘rugged individualism’ – that they deserve what they earn, so if they earn nothing and die because of it, they deserved that death. Why? Because capitalism is beautiful – well, until you have another Wall Street Crash, where the rich get richer, and the middle class who naively bought into capitalism lose everything.
    Because of this rugged individualism – where everybody fends for themselves – they absolutely despise of systems such as the NHS. Why should they pay tax in order to help other people who haven’t worked as hard as them and therefore deserve to die? Well – in the UK it’s because we’re nice people, with some sense of morality – I’m not sure the average American would be able to empathise with this.
    In fact, 45,000 people die per year because they can’t afford health insurance in the United States – people who don’t deserve to die. People who have died because other people get rich at their expense.
    Obama understands that this must change – and therefore introduced Obamacare, not where you could get free healthcare treatment, but where you could more easily sign up for insurance. For instance, it ends discrimination against those who have a pre-existing medical condition – a change which needed to happen.
    But let’s make one thing clear – you STILL have to pay for healthcare.
    And that’s why Obama is inherently no where near as socialist as we are in the UK.
    So why does he want to make the country healthier – perhaps it’s because he can’t escape the thought of people dying through no fault of their own. Or perhaps it’s because he understands that the fact that 45,000 people needlessly die each year shows one thing – America is weak. It can’t look after its own – and a civilisation isn’t civilised when it can’t look after its own.
    However, Americans must understand that this isn’t true socialism. In fact, some American call him communist because of his acts – obviously these people don’t actually know what communism is, and just use it as slander, because he definitely isn’t anywhere near communism.
    When he starts to do things such as nationalising key industries,  makes healthcare free and increases taxes in order to increase benefits (the dole), that’s when he can be called socialist. At present, he’s nowhere near.
    We must also ask why people in America are so afraid of socialism – perhaps because they liken it to the policies of the NAZI party – when in fact they were crazy fascist dictators, working under the illusion of socialism. Socialism is not bad – it can operate fully under a democracy, and it can make a country stronger and more profitable. I challenge anyone to come up with a coherent argument against socialism which I’d happily rebut.
    And finally – let me remind you of Cuba. Americans call Cuba marxist-lenonist, and whether or not this is true, or whether it’s just slander, is questionable – but it’s certainly a socialist, bordering on communist country, and a very successful one. In fact, its got one of the best education systems in the world, far better than the UK or USA.
    So – the questions are: is Obama a socialist, is socialism bad, and does America need to change?
    I’ll leave the latter for you to decide.Share this:

  96. MelissaJaneSharma

    I'm sure parents enjoyed paying for this experiment as their kids will have to retake this course

  97. Misha0630

    PattyAnn1 Misha0630  Hmmm… Harsh words, but I will respond.  I am not saying that Social Security is an award, but neither is it "insurance".  It is a benefit that you and I pay into and I (as should you) expect, at some time, to recoup the investment of that benefit.  It is meant to be a "savings account" of sorts to pay out when one retires and/or can no longer work.  But, when my benefits are cut and/or delayed (and thereby shortened or decreased in value), it is no longer my benefit, as those benefits (that I paid for) have been directly sent to someone else because "their need was greater than mine".  Social security is flawed based on the fact that it expects the current generations to pay out to the past generations that worked before us.  To be fair and honest, I don't agree with the Social Security concept at all, either.  If I do not save enough for my retirement, that is MY fault.  I don't expect anyone to pay me because I screwed up.  But, as we are all forced into participating (meaning that there is no "opt out" option), I do expect to recoup my full investment into the program.  However, because the government has mismanaged these funds and/or diverted those monies that were specifically marked for ONE purpose (SSI benefits), we know that there isn't enough money to cover the promised benefits.  And so, in the long run, I know that the government will squander away even more of my (and your) money and I will probably not see the full value of the promised benefit of yet another "wonderful government program" created to "help the people".  Why do you think they started the 401K program?  Because they knew SSI wouldn't be able to do all that it had originally promised to do.  I hope you aren't relying on Social Security for your retirement…

  98. Misha0630

    PattyAnn1 Misha0630 and, for the record, I don't expect an award… those are earned.  My point is that bad things happen and we all must make choices.  My choice was to fix it, not sit back and cry that life is not fair and that someone should fix it for me.  The possibility of an education is out there.  One must work for it and pay for it, but it is there.

  99. slowhoa

    albertagirl The social welfare and health care have to have in the most nation, but everyone country being faced the different situation. UK, US, Australia, Canada…are not the same. The government find anyway to promote people getting better the living condition, but the question:" where is money come from?"…likely, a parent in UK wants send the children to Eton college, but they have not enough income.

  100. Pahoran

    albertagirl Individual McDonalds restaurants are owned and operated by franchisees who determine the pay rate of their employees based in part on the profitability of the restaurant and the prevailing wage in their foodservice sector in the local economy. Profits made by the McDonalds corporation are an irrelevant factor. In the United States, McDonalds is one of the cheapest fast food restaurants and as such, probably has lower profit margins than restaurants that charge higher prices. Many McDonalds franchises in foreign countries charge significantly higher prices, which bring in more revenue to pay their employees. If all employers are forced to pay artificially inflated wages, the most profitable businesses will be able to continue operating by reducing their profit margin. However, many businesses will be forced to raise their prices to compensate for the higher wages and if their consumers are unwilling to pay the higher prices, they will be forced out of business, thereby putting all of their employees out of work. In the end, the government will be creating a few winners (earning higher wages) and many losers (earning nothing at all).

  101. GordoVipperman

    People do not die because they have no insurance. Over 2.4 million people in the US die yearly, that includes 45,000 who have no insurance.  So many more people die with insurance…right

  102. TomBarnhart

    BobYoung1 cadlebe JoelStoner  it's pure rhetoric… a good analogy… but not nearly as good as good ole Joe the Plumber who won't become "legitimately" self employed until tax rates are lower. But as cadlebe said… there is nothing to address here.
    Except the fact that many people here don't know the definition of communism and socialism and how they relate to capitalism.
    Ignorance breeds Joe The Plumber types.

  103. MikeGarbizo

    MelissaJaneSharmasometimes lessons are learned best through failures. Everyone of the students in that class fought for this idea only to learn the truth of what has made America so great of a nation, hint, it had nothing to do with socialism.

  104. ErikGruber

    GordoVipperman Maybe not as a direct cause, but it is a statistical fact that people with insurance live longer.

  105. GregPack

    "Can you think of a reason for not sharing this on Twitter or Facebook?  Neither could I."

    I'd love to share it. However,  without names of colleges and professors this story is likely bogus.  That's the reason I won't share it. If you can find the names and date of this event please share it.

  106. ErikGruber

    BobYoung1 Public123 No, it demonstrate why communism fails. Socialism is something completely different.

  107. SaraBower

    This is adorable. A nameless college and professor and vague story-telling reminiscent of junk mail or that bogus Albert Einstein-Professor-God story that everyone stupidly touts as fact.

  108. TheRealMrTim

    MikeGarbizo Right…America doesn't have socialized education nor socialized police and fire departments. Private corporations built our highways. Companies never get R&D grants subsidized from the government, and when big businesses fail, they never get a socialized bailout. America!

  109. gburg61

    I have seen socialism close up…people die when govt stops our creators keep what you earn…to live in peace without being told how to live(you must be charitable or you will be punished)). giving to the less fortunate is up to the individual NOT the govt. THIS is the reason we broke away from englands tyranny and established our constitution. Nazi germany began exactly the same way as our govt acts today. govt cannot GIVE away anything without taking it first.
    healthcare is just another service and the best service should go to those who pay for it. that way we ALL strive to move up the ladder not down into a thousand years of darkness…this is NOT a game this real.

  110. drunkman

    TheRealMrTim MikeGarbizo Private industry did build the highway, its called private contracting……You obviously haven't heard of Rural/Metro either, and plenty of private schools which perform a lot better than public schools. Sure we have government ran industry, only because people think we are better off with them, yet they all for the most part fail. We will continue to add to the failure and try to regulate the rich, which only leads to blocking out the poor from industry. Your socialism builds a cast society but everyone is taken care of right? History shows great nations fall to this idea but lets keep the failure flowing because we are stubborn and lack a notion of consequence from personal choice.

  111. ErikGruber

    drunkman TheRealMrTim MikeGarbizo Who do you think paid the private contractors. Recent history shows that nations prosper under socialism.

  112. drunkman

    gburg61 albertagirl It would be great if these socialist wanting rights grabbers finally understand that their voting for benefits is the reason other costs are going up, health care, education etc.

  113. JoeMcGillian

    ErikGruberGordoVippermanIs that correlation or causation though? If they have insurance, that would be an indicator they that are better off financially to begin with and can afford things like good nutrition and exercise, combined with lower stress levels.

  114. drunkman

    cadlebe That whole Russian farmer revolt thing, and part of Romes failure…..Same principle. Whether its real or not its a lesson to many people don't understand. Here's and interesting thought, what does government do, when particular industry, like ag, decides they don't want to take part in a big government market?

  115. Nick11766

    Socialism, yet another violation of our rights.   The gov’t constantly violates our rights. 
    They violate the 1st Amendment by caging protesters and banning books like “America Deceived II”.
    They violate the 4th and 5th Amendment by allowing TSA to grope you.
    They violate the entire Constitution by starting undeclared wars.
    Impeach Obama.
    Last link of “America Deceived II” before it is completely banned:

  116. Spider2769

    A crap teacher, and doesn't explain what socialism is or isn't. And to put the President's name for some stupid experiment doesn't prove anything except that ignorance prevails within a system of injustice. Socialism isn't about "Averaging" dollars therefore removing "Rewards" from those who study harder than others. The smartest physicist, scientist, biologist, chemist, engineers, aren't millionaires or billionaires. Idiots like Donald Trump know nothing about measuring the distances between 2 spaces, Charles and David Koch didn't "invent" or create anything. Talk about those who study, vs those who study little? The smartest people do not have nor control all of the money. So capitalism isn't about meritocracy, it's about "Racial Welfare". Owning buildings and property you don't build, having money and wealth you damn sure didn't earn or work for…. Completely stupid article that has no "point" to it.

  117. gawd521

    If this was real I'd fail the teacher for using communism to demonstrate socialism. Socialism isn't about making everybody absolutely equal like communism, if he wanted to demonstrate socialism it would be more accurate to do a typical grade curve. Obama's policies aren't even extreme enough to be considered socialism either.

  118. RosieMaty

    GregPack Bogus?  Or hypothetical example?  It teaches a relevant point about socialism.  Many teachers and others use hypotheticals, just as they use analogies to make concepts more clear and in a way the students can relate.  Facts are important, but even they can  mislead.  One can relate a factual example that is not at all representative of reality.  It can be the oddball or anomoly situation which may be factual, but does not accurately represent most of reality. A hypothetical example, while not hard, factual evidence,  does not necessarily invalidate the key  point being made.

  119. RosieMaty

    ErikGruber GordoVipperman And there could be multiple causes of their living longer.  They take better care of themselves, are less risky in their behavior, avoid unhealthy activities.  Having insurance may be an effect of better overall choices rather than the cause of living longer.

  120. ErikGruber

    RosieMaty ErikGruber GordoVipperman I know a lot of people (especially younger people) who take good care of themselves but don't have insurance. Maybe in the larger scheme it is correlation, but that is not always the case that people without insurance are irresponsible. Many simply can't/couldn't afford it.

  121. RosieMaty

    ErikGruber RosieMaty GordoVipperman And this is true especially now that young people who do take care of themselves cannot afford Obamacare because premiums and deductibles are out of their reach.  Obamacare should be repealed since it was absurd to throw out a system that worked for 85% of Americans.  They could have focused on the uninsured, even paid for them outright without up-ending the  the entire system and thrown millions off their policies.  (With millions more to come this year)  Anybody who voted for this disaster of a law without reading it should never hold public office again.  Health care reform should have been done in a more focused, smarter, more efficient, smaller way that would have worked better.  Tort reform, high-risk pools, —there were many measures that could have been enacted to serve the 15% who had no insurance,.  I've concluded this law was not about improving health care;  it's about redistributing wealth and strengthening federal power over the people.

  122. Hoover101

    Communism is the end goal of socialism. The teacher is correct in demonstrating that the end goal is flawed and that the populous will not operate as desired on the basis of providing for those in need of a good grade. We are motivated on self achievements not purely on altruism. As it turns out, capitalism is the highest form of altruism even though the intended affect is to help and progress your own standard of living. It just so happens that others benefit when you selfishly seek to lift your standard of living.

  123. MarcFrischhertz

    This is total BS.  It is an extreme example.  Pure Capitalism results in the same thing.  1% have everything and the rest of the people give up bc they no longer believe the playing field is fair and the deck is stacked against them. 
    I suspect this story, which doesn't name the professor or the school, is just a conservative utopian dream.

  124. tjompatetjaskat

    Don't fool yourself! Coming from a very SOCIALISTIC country, I can attest to the FACT that what the teacher did was to give a totally true abbreviated picture of what the end result is of people's behavior in a socialistic environment. I see what has happened to my birth country over the years, and sadly to say, what the teacher exemplified in his classroom, is exactly what happens over time with people who do not have the incentive to reap what they plant. I guess it it human nature to want to take the easy way out if there is one. But in such a society there is no great ambition or reason to really excel either. Great inventions, and greatness in human nature level out to the average, and the greatness that could have been evaporates into mediocrity.

  125. RobMacDonald

    I'm still trying to see this Obama socialism.  I look, I look hard, but I don't see a hint of socialism.  Is it obamacare?  Cause, sorry folks, that's not socialized medicine, that's capitalism style medicine written and enforced by the pharmaceutical and insurance industries.

    And this is hardly an example of anything related to reality.  In fact, a better experiement is to hand 5 of the students all of the marks, and tell them you can keep these to yourselves, even though you didn't really earn it, or you can share it amongst those working under you, who DID earn it.  Then have the students explain why they didn't feel the need to share the wealth they didn't earn.

    Man, the mental gymnastics conservatives are able to do are amazing.  Should be an olympic event.

  126. RobMacDonald

    SaraBower Couldn't agree more, there's so many things wrong with the "article" I'd suspect the professors name is Sorchal Faal.

    Google it if you don't get it.

    Conservatives, gotta give them credit, the believe so strongly in the things they believe, they are willing to just flat out make crap up

  127. RobMacDonald

    RosieMaty GregPack You mean communisim, as this "experiment" bares little resemblance to socialism.

    But, my obviously conservative friend, you might be wise to educated yourself on a simple, provable fact.  Your elected representatives, you know, those warning you about how socialized medicine will ruin your country, are in fact receiving socialized medicine, that you paid for.

    Good for the goose, good for the gander some would say.  I, on the other hand, would rather say pull your head out of your ass and learn about your government and country, you've clearly lost touch with reality.

  128. RobMacDonald

    TheRealMrTim MikeGarbizo and the government doesn't give it's employees socialized medicare.  Oh wait…. they totally do, add that to your list. 

    I'm glad to see so many, apparently Americans, on the ball on this subject, it's easy to assume the whole country is conservative the way the media plays it.

  129. RobMacDonald

    gburg61 albertagirl Did you honestly just compare the US to the run up to Nazi Germany?  Clearly this professor taught you a lot.  

    What's it like to live in Bizaroo world?  Sounds fun, and maybe a little scary.

  130. Hoover101

    It would please me greatly if MarcFrischhertz could provide one example where capitalism created an economy where 1% of the populous had everything and the rest gave up. Capitalism promotes prosperity by allowing everyone the same opportunity for success. Capitalism enables each man the ability to rise above the social class that  he was born into  through inventiveness and hard work. 

    I can think of many countries whose citizens suffered worse economically after the implementation of socialist and communist principles.  (i.e. North Korea, USSR, Cuba, Spain, etc.)

  131. RobMacDonald

    JoelStoner Then you are probably aware that the USA is a constitutional republic, not a democracy.

    Don't reply unless you want more butthurt from a Canadian who clearly knows more about your country and government than you do.  

    Socialism = every is treated equally
    Communism = the government owns everything, workers are government fodder
    Facism = government colludes with corporations 
    Democracy = 51% of the people control 49% of the people

    And guess what?  The only "ism" the US fits into now, is Fascism.

  132. RobMacDonald

    nomad_newyork AubreyDurkin Well my country of origin, Canada, is considered to be "socialist"

    And guess what?  We beat the hell out of the US on just about every "best place to…" list.  Infant survivability?  Intensely better under out evil socialized medicine.  

    In fact, the only thing we tend to lag behind on is Millionaires, we don't have as many of them around, but that's changing as our government, and country, continues to take a conservative stance.

  133. jwetterlin

    TheRealMrTimMikeGarbizohaha, citizens did pay for those, it's called tax. it's unbelievable how people think the government produces all of these things without the use of tax dollars. and idk if you can connect the dots but private corporations pay taxes.

  134. jwetterlin

    RobMacDonaldRosieMatyGregPack representatives are actually exempt from obamacare, who needs to educate themselves?

  135. RobMacDonald

    JeffWalters1 nomad_newyork AubreyDurkin Lol not even the US government is willing to say they have the best healthcare system, they don't.  I could provide links to explain that in detail, but you wouldn't read them anyways.

    The US has one of the best systems to access healthcare, if you can afford it. It certainly doesn't have the "best and the brightest"

    Maybe it's just me, but I'd prefer the guy operating on my heart is doing it because he wants to be a doctor and wants to help people, not because he's going to miss the next payment on his Porsche.

    You might want to research your opinion using resources not provided directly by the industry in question, how about the WHO, or UN reports, you know, those unbiased and not connected to the industry in question.

    Yeah, i know, totally different story there isn't it.

    People like you make me sad, fox news said it, it has to be true, here's a bunch of unsourced blog posts to support it.

  136. RobMacDonald

    jwetterlin RobMacDonald RosieMaty GregPack Of course they are, because they have TRUE socialized medicine, Obamacare is not even comparable to socialized medicine.  And, for the record, I think Obama is the worst president in awhile, on actions alone, and Obamacare, even before it was gutted, was a pile of excrement, and i get offended that so many call it socialism.

  137. jwetterlin

    RobMacDonaldgburg61albertagirl he is taking an educated approach and seeing that there are several similarities in the direction this country is heading and the way nazi germany was headed in the antebellum wwII period. he is not saying we will go as far as the nazis, but he is pointing out that those people didnt get what they signed up for.  to say that what were doing now doesn't relate to the actions taken by pre-wwII nazis is ignorant and uneducated

  138. mashuribc

    Hoover101Please point to any example of true capitalism.  That means NO GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION WHATSOEVER.  If you mean the current U.S. system, well that is crony capitalism, bordering on fascism.The old-school guys called it by its long-standing, old-school name: Mercantilism.

  139. jwetterlin

    RobMacDonaldJoelStoneryour definition of socialism is way off. are you telling me the guy who gets taxed 100,000 a year is treated fairly compaired to the guy the government pays 30,000 a year too?

  140. jwetterlin

    RobMacDonaldJoelStonerthe answer is no they treat all individuals differently, they help some and hurt others, keep your opinions in canada bro, you guys are really prospering up there. LOL

  141. george_m

    jwetterlin RobMacDonald gburg61 albertagirl At the time the people of Germany didn't really get to choose what to sign up for – their society was in such a depression that they were desperate – a factor which makes this a flawed comparison. People idolised in the Nazi manifesto because they had no other choice – Hitler was a very powerful speaker, and German people fooled themselves into thinking that his leadership was needed in order to come out of a terrible depression. So I don't think that the rise of the Nazi party and the terrible crimes which they committed was a result of socialism, but instead a result of Hitler's leadership and the political/social/economic situation in Germany at the time.

  142. jwetterlin

    george_mjwetterlinRobMacDonaldgburg61albertagirl kinda like us citizens dont have a choice to sign up for healthcare? we are in a economic lull. obama is a very powerful speaker.  people idolise the obama manifesto.  people fooled themselves into thinking they needed obamas leadership in order to come out of a terrible depression. 
    see it now?

  143. joshskt

    This article only exemplifies our terrible education system; I'm tempted to believe this is fake news, nobody can be this stupid.

  144. george_m

    jwetterlin george_m RobMacDonald gburg61 albertagirl No – not like that at all. 

    The current American 'depression' is no where near as bad as the one in Germany. In Germany they were having to burn money because it was cheaper than fuel. They were starving and fighting for food and shelter. They did not have a choice – Hitler was the only light at the end of this tunnel. 

    Perhaps you're being the one who's ignorant.

  145. jwetterlin

    socialized medicine is when the government pays for your healthcare, not your employer. those people get their healthcare through the same people who write them their paycheck. if they lose their jobs they lose their healthcare. it is definately NOT socialized medicine, just an employer providing for their employee.

  146. jwetterlin

    american people make it seem like were in a depression right now. and even if that's not really relevant, what about the rest of the similarities?

  147. MarcFrischhertz

    The NFL is completely socialist and is the most popular sport in America.  The team that finishes first, picks last in the draft.  There is a salary cap, so the rich and poor teams spend the same ammount.  All revenue is shared…. 
    Answer me this, Why hasn't the socialist NFL failed?
    In contrast, MLB is purely capitalistic.  The rich buy all the players they want, and the poor teams just eat it.  The fans of the poor teams know from day one they don't have a shot.  Just like poor people in a purely capitalistic society, the fans of the poor teams have pretty much given up hope.  Sure there is that one team that for one year can make some noise, but that is really an illusion to help continue to sell the system to the have nots. 
    MLB on the decline,  NFL more popular than ever.  So don't give me this capitalism in it's purest form is the way to go.
    plus, this is a real example, not like the one the writer made up

  148. Hoover101

    mashuribc Hoover101  I agree with your statement that the United States federal government intervenes with private business in a manner that reflects fascism. The free market in the U.S has been greatly impeded by regulation and this has also been/still is the case in many countries that impose regulations on business. However, history shows that where free market capitalism exists unimpeded, the citizens of that society prosper comparatively to their initial circumstances. 

    I can not provide for you any particular instance where no government intervention occurred in a capitalist society. I can only state that those capitalist societies with the least government intervention have fared better than societies with high degrees of regulation and mandates.

  149. jwetterlin

    george_mRobMacDonaldgburg61albertagirlamericans have no choice but to do as the government told them when it comes to healthcare, obama is a very powerful speaker, people idolize the obama manifesto (at least they used to) and people fooled themselves into thinking they needed obama. you just discredited 20% of that arguement and you think its void now?

  150. george_m

    jwetterlin george_m RobMacDonald gburg61 albertagirl All of the other similarities depend on the depression – for instance, the fact that both Hitler and Obama were good speakers – this meant that it was easier for Hitler to exploit people who were facing poverty. OK, some people in the US will be in financial hardship and choose to support Obama because it sounds like their only choice, but no where near as many as in Nazi Germany. It's the same scenario with the manifesto – only a few people in America are desperate enough to feel as if they have no other choice.

  151. MarcFrischhertz

    Hoover101 Try America.  1% owns more than the bottom 80%.  this started with Reagan and has gotten worse every year since.  Do some research on google.  % of wealth of top 1% from 1970 to present.
    ALso, go look at the distribution of wealth in this counrty from 1945-1970.  The post war boom.  The time conservatives look to as the greatest.  Compare it to now.  Also, look at the number of workers who belonged to a union back then compared to now.
    Get your head out of your ass and quit drinking Republican Kool-aid.  do the research yourslf.

  152. jwetterlin

    RobMacDonaldJeffWalters1nomad_newyorkAubreyDurkin why don't you do a little research and find out where most medical advancement happens. then tell me where all those countries who have "better" healtcare than the usa get their drugs.

  153. george_m

    jwetterlin george_m RobMacDonald gburg61 albertagirl For you to be able to compare modern day America to pre-WW2 Germany is ultimately too simplistic. You're failing to consider the multiple other social factors and variables.

  154. jwetterlin

    RobMacDonaldJeffWalters1nomad_newyorkAubreyDurkin we wouldnt have the healtcare we have today without the system we have. Research and Development funds would go to pay for peoples healtcare instead of pioneering new drugs and treatmeants to beat diseases such as cancer, AIDS, heart disease and much much more. simply put we would be using out-of-date medicine today if our system wasnt structured the way it was

  155. george_m

    jwetterlin george_m RobMacDonald gburg61 albertagirl And I hope you agree that the choice associated with healthcare is far smaller than the choice Germans had to make – whether or not they would starve or vote Nazi.

  156. BenEstrada

    this is total bullS***, and that is NOT what socialism offers….Europe has been socialist for a long time and they are very successful, you have to have a balance between capitalism, human drive, and equality

  157. BenEstrada

    RobMacDonald so true…this new healthcare law is ENFORCED capitalism. We need to take out the middle man, between health, and the citizenry…ie (the insurance companies taking all your cash)

  158. RJOGuillory

    MarcFrischhertz…but I think you miss the point…The NFL desires "Parity" so that they have regular seasons that are neck-n-neck among competing teams….they want 9-7 teams that are still in the playoff hunt during the last weekend of the season…because they are trying to drive television revenues…not reward excellent play?

    Can you imagine if the NFL  just lett the Jerry Jones of the league spend any amount they wanted…you would have 4-6 teams with all the wins and everyone else…would be sitting at home…so their goals are different…from an economic perspective….and you observation just goes to prove the Professor's point…eh?

    RJ O'Guillory
    Webster Groves – The Life of an Insane Family

  159. BenEstrada

    the problem with capitalism, communism, socialism and all else, is the sickness of human greed. When we decide to take away the power of money, and replace that with a broader humanist incentive to excel, then only shall we be free of poverty, violence, and corruption.

  160. thecreature8

    This, like the argument against capitalism and socialism, is hinged on the fact that every single student is more concerned with a grade (or "money", in terms of either currency or goods, in a financial/governmental situation), rather than what they should be concerned about. Sure, grades are extremely important to succeeding in an educational system based predominantly on standardized testing, just as money is extremely important in a society who judges the worth of a human being by the size of their bank account, rather than what they can contribute to the world, but that assumes a complete lack of foresight. If the students studied and learned for their own self-improvement and learning's sake (i.e. placed value in the experience of learning, rather than the grade), which is theoretically why any student is in college in the first place, the class would not have failed. Doing so does help those who chose not to study but when the class is over, who has the skills and knowledge to actually go perform well in a related field? The answer to that question is simple. We underpay our teachers and overpay our business executives because we care more about currency and who can obtain it most efficiently than what those people are actually doing to obtain it. When your values, as a society, are misdirected, any system of government, or lack thereof is bound to fail.

  161. shaneayers1

    "Capitalism promotes prosperity by allowing everyone the same opportunity for success."
    This is where your argument fell apart. There is a huge, and compounding, disparity in quality of life based upon starting point in life. Someone born rich is more likely to become rich than someone not born rich, even if they didn't inherit the wealth, due to the impacts of wealth (better educational opportunities, less stress, better diet during cognitive formative years, more connections, access to free or cheap loans, etc). Pointing at the people who made it as being the norm is not only innumerate, it spits in the face of all the people that NECESSARILY must fail in order to make it possible for others to succeed (see 10-year failure rates for entrepreneurs averages across all industries).

    The idea you're pushing is a bad joke and we're all the punch line.
    “Socialism never took root in America because the
    poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily
    embarrassed millionaires. -John Steinbeck

  162. Hoover101

    MarcFrischhertz Your premise is wrong. Each team within the NFL may share profits through TV contracts, merchandise, ticket sales, etc. However, the teams are able to distribute their funds independently and each owner is able to spend the revenue in a way that they see fit to better the teams competitiveness. For instance, general managers sign contracts to players according to their ability, not their need. If the NFL was truly socialist/communist then the starting quarterback would make the same salary as the 4th string quarterback and players would not be allowed to negotiate their contracts.

    Your example is failed and does not apply to private enterprise. Every private business in america is a dictatorship. Does that prove that fascist dictatorships are the superior method in which to lead a society? NO! 

    Please provide me one example where a communist or socialist country was better off after utilizing that form of government! You can't do it because no such society has ever or will ever exist. 

    P.S. If you say China I will prove to you why (economically) it is not a socialist/communist  country.

  163. jwetterlin

    george_mjwetterlinRobMacDonaldgburg61albertagirl i never said that the two societies were even close to the same, i just stated that there are multiple similarities, nothing you said discredits any of my arguement. there were still many similarities were there not?

  164. Blyndfayth

    Many years ago, I was in the country formerly known as Yugoslavia. After witnessing firsthand what real Socialism was and is, I must say I would never want to live in those conditions under a Government that follows that form of governing. The people were miserable, didn't smile, they wore drab and colorless clothing. I'm an American, yes our system is not perfect being that it is manipulated to benefit those in power taking advantage of the people and the world. However it's what we have in place, not that I totally accept it, it is up to the people to make the changes. What do these students know of the world other than what they witness in the news, their social media and in the classroom? The system functions because the people want it to, as long as their needs are being met on some level, not because they will not receive a good grade, or they will not survive.

  165. Hoover101

    BenEstrada  Do you understand what wealth is? It isn't just money. Money is just the physical form of wealth. Ideas are the real wealth that a capitalist and free market society creates. Who benefited most when Thomas Edison created the light bulb? Was it his bank account or was it society?
    Who benefited most when Willis Carrier invented the air conditioner? Was it Willis Carrier's bank account or was it everyone in the lower 48 who has had to endure a hot August heatwave inside their own home?

  166. mhescott

    george_m GordoVipperman Yup….and a 37% increase if you're a male.  Quick, tuck it between your legs and maybe death will pass you by.  This article was written with one agenda in mind.  So how do you think the study was also conducted.  Give me any topic, and I can make the stats say exactly what you want to hear.

  167. SmaugTheTerrible

    jwetterlinRobMacDonaldRosieMatyGregPack Their employer is the government. There's no reason to make the distinction you're making, save to be obstinate to the fact that they are in fact receiving what is the definition of socialized medicine by virtue of their station.

  168. SmaugTheTerrible

    jwetterlinTheRealMrTimMikeGarbizo That's an unfortunate argument you're making; that taking money from people in the form of taxes is in any way different from directly controlling the means of production in relation to the way the resources that have been acquired are dispersed to the public.The money the public gives the government is only ever used to purchase goods and services. That's an end-run around socialism. Unfortunate indeed.

  169. jwetterlin

    SmaugTheTerriblejwetterlinRobMacDonaldRosieMatyGregPack you recieve socialized medicine for being a citizen of a country not being a government employee. when these people lose their jobs they lose their healthcare. just like you or me would lose our healtcare if we lost our jobs so would they.  do people who work for cities and states get socialized medicine according to you? do road workers get socialized medicine?

  170. jwetterlin

    SmaugTheTerriblejwetterlinRobMacDonaldRosieMatyGregPack do a quick search to find out what socialized healtcare means

  171. jwetterlin

    SmaugTheTerriblejwetterlinTheRealMrTimMikeGarbizo can you rephrase that i'm not quite sure what you're trying to get at.

  172. ImrightYourWrong

    BenEstradaEurope? You realize thats not one country under one government and No not all of Europe is socialist…. wow. Whats total bullshit is your lack of knowledge and research. You have the internet, not to speak freely and blast your ignorant opinion all over the place but to learn. Try doing that for now on. Practically all countries of Europe (Germany, France, Norway, Sweden,
    Switzerland, Poland, Italy, Spain, Portugal, and Greece), Australia,
    South Korea, Singapore, Malayasia, and lately even Russia and
    (selectively) China follow capitalism.

  173. ImrightYourWrong

    MarcFrischhertzThe only thing you can relate this to is sports? Go read a book and take a moment from your fantasy team.

  174. george_m

    mhescott george_m GordoVipperman I'm not entirely sure how the whole male thing is relevant? And do you have any evidence to suggest that the article was written with one agenda in mind? Do you have any credibility to support your assertions? If not, you're no better than them.

  175. ImrightYourWrong

    thecreature8 Thats all well and good but eventually and inevitably, all your hard work will seem for nothing. You cant expect just the joy of knowledge in this case to be enough when a student knows they got all the answers right to the test and still receives a failing grade. You know you would say at some point, "its not even worth it". Youd be mad just like the students who tried at first. Youd also not put in the work at your job if you knew you were getting paid the same as the guy who goofs off the whole time. In this economy youd go to your boss and complain and they would get fired. But in a socialist country they wouldnt be. And the main point is that the upper and middle class is getting screwed so that a bunch of low lives can sit on their asses and collect money. Obama thinks if they get a chance they can make something of them selves. Whats really happening is that they take advantage and see no point in actually working for them selves. So lets not get too off topic. Obama needs to go ASAP along with his policies. When it comes down to it, its racism. Call it what you want, but the majority of the people who benefit from this are black. Blacks voted for him because they could get free money and free phones and who knows what else without having to work for it because "they got one of their own in power" And thats exactly how they feel about it. I watch BET during the election and couldnt believe what I was seeing. There are countless videos on YouTube with Blacks saying vote for Obama and you get a free phone. Im not racist, just reporting the facts.

  176. starvinmarvinthehutt

    SmaugTheTerrible  No one needs to fail for others to succeed. Companies that fail because no one wants what they are offering is positive for society. Instead of wasting their time and resources they will now find other ways to be useful to society. Socialism hasnt taken root in america because most americans recognize socialism as tyranny.

  177. starvinmarvinthehutt

    MarcFrischhertz Thats not what happens under capitalism. Historically capitalism has always lesssened the wealth gap. The more regulations we have on human interaction the more the wealth gap grows.

  178. starvinmarvinthehutt

    Spider2769 You are an idiot. Bill gates, Steve Jobs, Warren Buffet, Richard Branson are idiots? Ive met a lot of scientists who have no idea what they are talking about.

  179. Hoover101

    MarcFrischhertz Hoover101 So you are telling me that everyone in this country who is not a part of the 1% of wealthiest Americans has given up? That's a good laugh! 
    I should remind you that the poor in our county are comparatively wealthy when placed beside the true have-nots of the world. Capitalism doesn't imply that for one person to win another person must lose. Our free market has allowed for businesses and societal growth that is symbiotic by both benefiting from each other. 
    I'm not a Republican by the way and I'm not a Democrat. I'm a liberal in the truest sense of the word, believing that economic and personal liberties are our greatest assests as a country.

  180. MarcFrischhertz

    starvinmarvinthehutt MarcFrischhertz That is complete bull.  Give one example.  Go look at the USA from 1875 to 1929.  Very little if any regulation and the wealth gap grew and grew and the lack of regulation led to a great depression.  have you every read a book?

  181. starvinmarvinthehutt

    RobMacDonald Socialized medicine is bad for everyone. Socialism doesnt work. Freedom works.

  182. MarcFrischhertz

    starvinmarvinthehutt MarcFrischhertz Furthermore, after the depression congress passed the Taft Hartley Act ( a regulation) look it up, you might learn something.  This statute stated in effect until 1995 when Newt repealed significant portions of it.  This helped lead to the great recession that we are currently recoverying from.
    Read something other than the ticker on Fox News

  183. starvinmarvinthehutt

    TheRealMrTim Yeah and how are public schools working out? How about the unaccountable police force that brutalizes the population more and more every year. If taxpayers pay for roads and private companies build them, what the hell do we need the government for?

  184. MarcFrischhertz

    The two pictures are of different classroms and have different locations in their meta data.  This story is another republican myth

  185. starvinmarvinthehutt

    ErikGruber Hahaha yeah tell that to Greece and Venezuela. You have no idea what you are talking about.

  186. MarcFrischhertz

    ImrightYourWrong BenEstrada First, many people discuss Europe as an entity even though they know it is not.  Your buddy RUSH does it on a daily basis.  Second, there is something called the European Union, which ties all of European mainland economically.
    Dumb ass

  187. Spider2769

    starvinmarvinthehutt You can lob insults at me all day, that I don't mind. Children lob insults at each other because they have nothing intelligent to say nor a point or argument to make much like yourself. I never mentioned Bill Gates, Steve Jobs or Warren Buffet, you did. And to meet a scientist that doesn't know what he's talking about? Number 1 – He's not a scientist you're just dumb enough to think so. Number 2 there's no such thing as a dumb scientist or one who doesn't know what he's talking about. To imply as such would be a self-contradiction.

  188. MarcFrischhertz

    Hoover101 MarcFrischhertz No, a portion of the other 99% has and that portion will grow until a leader comes along and there is a revolution.

  189. MarcFrischhertz

    Hoover101 MarcFrischhertz Given me an example of the trickle down ecomonics theory you describe?

  190. RJOGuillory

    Hey…Blyndfayth…I worked in Bosnia & Herzegovina for a time back in the day…and into Serbia as well….my memory is shot..due to about 300 seizures I experienced since then…and surviving a drive off a 200 foot cliff..due to my now diagnosed epilepsy…so it is hard to recall all the places I worked…but I think Camp Colt was one place…I  was in the basement of the Olympic Stadium in Sarajevo where they were storing bodies from the war…as it was colder downstairs…..but what I do recall was the resilience of the people …the regard and respect they showed for each other…great folks!…I enjoyed their culture very much…..and…I was also in charge of the US Military's Beer Tent In Hungary….so the memories I do have are all good… …except for the US Government..and their corruption…ha!

    RJ O'Guillory
    Webster Groves – The Life of an Insane Family

  191. MarcFrischhertz

    starvinmarvinthehutt SmaugTheTerrible You are wrong.  The rich could not be rich if others didn't fail, i.e, weren't poor.  Rich is a descriptive word that only has meaning if there are people who are "poor" comparatively speaking for the rich person to be compared to.

  192. ImrightYourWrong

    MarcFrischhertzImrightYourWrongBenEstradaReally? Im the dumbass? WOW OKAY. Rush is not my buddy. What the EU does is make life easier because the countries are as close as states are here in the US. They can use the Euro and not have to mess with conversion rates and trade freely between them selves which also cuts down on conflict. The EU does not make Europe Socialist. Dumbass

  193. JoelStoner

    RobMacDonaldYes Rob i do know that the US is a Constitutional Republic. But so glad that you decided to waste my time, by replying with no facts, just opinion. Your equation of socialism is completely wrong. There is no form of government where everyone is treated equally, there will always be elitist leaders in any form of government.
    While the Native Americans (Indians) had democracies, and socialism, we sure wiped them out.
    Isms are ideologies not forms of government. Socialism, and communism will never work, because you will never be able to get 51% of the people to agree on everything.

  194. JoelStoner

    cadlebeJoelStonerWho's asking you to respond to the article? My request was for people like you who choose to reply to my comments.

  195. Hoover101

    MarcFrischhertz starvinmarvinthehutt The Federal Government is indeed attempting to create fascist (Crony capitalist) state.

  196. JoelStoner

    TomBarnhartBobYoung1cadlebeJoelStonerIt is a common tactic of those not knowing what they are talking about to change the subject so as to appear to know what they are talking about. And or to confuse those who read their comment, so that they may think they know what they are talking about. While the story is most likely fictitious, the point is that some people will only learn that ideologies like socialism, and communism will not work, without experiencing them.

  197. ImrightYourWrong

    DorothyLanierImrightYourWrongthecreature8Oh wow so the "cell hone" thing was Bush's idea??? It was an example and never did I say that Obama created the idea. I dont care what MOST people say. I just know that talking about race especially on the internet can be taken way out of context. Funny thats the one and only trivial comment out of the whole thing you have a "defense" for. How long have you had that one in the holster? Besides, were white people making signs and protesting to vote for Bush because of free cell phones? NO. So who gives a shit who came up with it. Who is manipulating it? Who voted for a president, not based on his policies but on his race? Who voted for him because of the free hand outs? NOT ME. Because I work for what I have.

  198. starvinmarvinthehutt

    MarcFrischhertz starvinmarvinthehutt SmaugTheTerrible You seem to be under the illusion that wealth is actually a giant pie and if one person has more that means others have less. This however is not true. It is not how wealth is created. When two people engage in voluntary exchange, they both benefit from it.

  199. Hoover101

    MarcFrischhertz Hoover101 I am not describing trickle down economics. The main premise of my argument is that society prospers when their is something to be gained through individual efforts. Greed is in fact the primary motivator of a capitalist society. However, the unintentional consequence of this greed has historically been the advancement of society both in terms of created knowledge and wealth. Some minds think that wealth is trickled down, however there are many economists who believe that wealth is spread through transactions that are mutually beneficial to both the business and consumer.

  200. starvinmarvinthehutt

    MarcFrischhertz starvinmarvinthehutt Its hilarious when people like yourself pretend to be well informed by spouting off liberal talking points like they are really intelligent points. The wealth gap between 1875-1929 shrank immensely. More then anyother time in history. Absolute poverty shrank by 40%. The great depression and the great recession were not a product of lack of regulation. They occured because of government involvement in the free market. 2008 happen because of the housing bubble. the housing bubble was a creation of the federal reserve handing out free credit to wall street. Interests rates actually mean something and have a tremendous effect on the economy and how businesses invest. When you artificially keep interest rates low, you have malinvestment and create a bubble. All bubbles eventually burst, and the morons want to blame it on capitalism which was never the cause. Go read a book. There is more to economics then what your keynesian professor in econ 101 taught you.

  201. starvinmarvinthehutt

    MarcFrischhertz Glass-steagal being repealed did not cause the recession. None of the major banks that collapsed would have been regulated under these banking regulations.

  202. starvinmarvinthehutt

    Spider2769 starvinmarvinthehutt hahaha wow. You really think that all scientists know what they are talking about. What about scientists that contradict eachother? You are saying one of them isnt a scientist because he is wrong? You brought up a few billionaires that inherited their wealth and used it as an example of how capitalism isnt about meritocracy. I named several billionaires who made their billions on their own by providing goods and services that people choose to buy. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

  203. Hoover101

    SmaugTheTerrible Hoover101 I agree with your statement that "Someone born rich is more likely to become rich than someone not born rich." 
    You are missing a critical point however, one that the story above is trying to explain. The point is that humans are motivated through incentives. When the incentive is taken away then the human losses the motivation to overachieve. Why would anyone seek to out perform if the reward is unilateral? This is why socialism and communism fail EVERY SINGLE TIME. People that live in communist governments stop trying to perform/produce because there is no reward for performing/producing.

  204. starvinmarvinthehutt

    RobMacDonald You obviously have no understanding of economics, history, or morals. Socialism can only exist through violence and massive amounts of theft at the hands of the state. grow up.

  205. Gaetanod

    Interesting experiment, now how about a test the mirrors free market capitalism. In this test only 1 person will get an A and everyone else will get an F. What will the results be in that case!? Couldn't that have the same demotivation effect!? Sound too extreme? Well we can fix the parameters however we want because this is all hypothetical and if we use extreme examples, as the author of this article has done, then the only comparison is the extreme opposite.

  206. JeffreyEdmonds

    This is an urban Legend it never happened and it is pure propaganda.
    Anyone that calls anything associated with Obama a socialist needs to take some political science classes

  207. SmaugTheTerrible

    Hoover101 SmaugTheTerrible  "The point is that humans are motivated through incentives. When the incentive is taken away then the human looses the motivation to overachieve."
    Some questions for you to ponder. Is the incentive of survival vs death the best motivating force for humanity? is it the most humane? Is it the highest and best use for human time on an individual scale and as a species? Do you see it leading to the sort of future where there is no war and no poverty? Do you believe that incentives cannot or should not be replaced? How do you rationalize the view you may have with the preceedence of organized sports and the olympics as venues for letting out aggression without warfare? Do you have a passion? Is it your job or your hobbie? If it's your job, would you do it for free if you could? If it's your hobbie, how do you rationalize this against the beliefs you've posited? Do you believe people do more effective work when motivated by money or passion? You don't need to answer them here. They're for you to dwell on.

    "Why would anyone seek to out perform if the reward is unilateral?"

    Why do the rewards have to be unilateral? That's not really what socialism states. That's communism, which we've never really seen yet, since by definition Communism is absent the State and Classes (both of which are present in any iteration of "Communism" you can pull from human history so far, primarily due to technological limitations). Also, is having the ability to live (something I find somewhat laughable when we're supposedly guaranteed the right to life and liberty) the only reward worth working for?

    "This is why socialism and communism fail EVERY SINGLE TIME. "

    Are you sure? Are you sure it's not because the means of production have not been sufficiently automated and people in positions of power abuse it, and that no true iteration of communism has ever existed? Are you sure you're sure?

    " People that live in communist governments stop trying to perform/produce because there is no reward for performing/producing."

    If that were true, we would have no art. We would have no literature. We would have no theater. We would have no music. By and large most of the bedrock that western culture was built on was built by people that were starving artists, people that didn't gain notoriety until after their death. Ironically, these pursuits are seen as the most pure of motive, the least tainted by the drive for money or possessions, and the most expressive of the human spirit. Draw your own conclusions about that.

  208. SmaugTheTerrible

    starvinmarvinthehutt MarcFrischhertz SmaugTheTerrible  You said two things that you attempted to pass off as one idea. Let me dissemble this for anyone looking on. 

    "You seem to be under the illusion that wealth is actually a giant pie and if one person has more that means others have less. This however is not true. It is not how wealth is created."

    On the one hand, resources are finite and so are liquid assets. There is a finite pool of money in the world, finite land, finite materials for building, finite manpower, finite electricity or capacity to create electricty at any given moment, etc, so by default if one person acquires more without more being created that someone somewhere has less or none of whatever was acquired. By default this is the case. And that is how wealth is created, but I'll continue that after this. 

    " When two people engage in voluntary exchange, they both benefit from it."

    So, your argument here is actually separate and different from the first thing you said, though you offered no means for someone to be able to tell that just by reading it through. In joining these two notions, you are suggesting that 1) no exchanges happen involuntarily (hostile takeover, coercion [as in employee wage negotiations], etc) 2) that both parties benefit equally from voluntary exchanges [need I begin to discuss real estate?], 3) that wealth is created from voluntary exchanges [slave labor historically, sweat shops and migrant workers today, among other things] and 4) that wealth (a temporally shifting concept) is necessarily created without exchanges (a temporally static concept, an exchange is valuated at the moment of the exchange possibly with projections into the future value]) in which one person can benefit more in the long run than the other, since we must necessarily evaluate the transaction along the timescale of the wealth. That is to say that if the benefits ONLY appear equal at the instance of transaction but yield wildly different results for both parties, it wasn't really an equal transaction and both parties didn't really benefit from it equally (again, real estate). 

    I don't think any of those precepts bear out in analysis of the world. The stock market is pretty much the best example that broaches all of those ideas and is a massive engine for wealth building, aside from business ownership (which, depending on the business, is still arguably in violation of most of the precepts listed).

  209. SmaugTheTerrible

    starvinmarvinthehutt SmaugTheTerrible  "  No one needs to fail for others to succeed. Companies that fail because no one wants what they are offering is positive for society."

    Incorrect. One of several competing brands offering almost identical products can fail and have their market share eaten up despite the fact that people do want what they are offering. For example, a mom and pop level shop can be railroaded out of business by a walmart or can be forced out of business by a monopoly. That's demonstrably negative for society. 

    Socialism CAN be tyranny, and so can capitalism (or rather, corporatism, which is what we get when we let capitalism run too long with too few rules). The difference is that socialism is honest about it's flaws. Capitalism sells people unattainable dreams.

  210. SmaugTheTerrible

    jwetterlin SmaugTheTerrible TheRealMrTim MikeGarbizo What I'm getting at is that what you're advocating for is what you're railing against, but with a middleman that takes an exorbitant cut for the job of "representing" you.

  211. SmaugTheTerrible

    Blyndfayth Do you know what else failed? DiVinci's flying machine. Do you know why? Because he didn't have the technology necessary to make it work. Socialism is only supposed to be a transition phase. It's supposed to lead to a form of Communism where there is no state and there are no classes because technology has eliminated the need for that. Just because they didn't have the technology to make it work at the time, doesn't mean it will fail in the future.

  212. SmaugTheTerrible

    jwetterlin SmaugTheTerrible RobMacDonald RosieMaty GregPack Making the argument that "it's only socialized for a little while" doesn't really work in your favor. If it look s like socialized medicine, and it acts like socialized medicine, then I don't care if you call it medical benefits for civil servants to make yourself feel like it's not socialized medicine on a temporary basis, it still is.

  213. thecreature8

    ImrightYourWrong you make the assumption that everyone sees the world the way you do. I went to college to obtain the knowledge required of me to get a job that affords me the ability to live a life I consider comfortable. Did the particular grades I got matter to me? No. I did the best I could and put what I felt was all I had into learning and bettering myself as a student and hopefully as a person. As far as I'm concerned, grades are relatively useless. If you are working towards a grade, your efforts will seem futile. If you are working towards knowledge, the grades do not matter. If you are working towards a fortune, your example would appear unfair. If you're working under the assumption that the work you're doing is making a difference in the world and those changes are evident, and that is of any value to you, another person's money is no concern of yours. I do not buy into your clear "us vs them" viewpoint. "I'm not racist, I'm just reporting the facts [that come off as disturbingly racist]". I believe the "blacks" you are referring to are the lower and middle class which is probably where most minority citizens find themselves (due in part to years of NOT being afforded equal opportunities in this country), but it would be pretty ignorant to deny the large number of white citizens in the lower/middle class. I'm sure some of them would be happy to get some "free money" and a "free cell phone", if they were gullible enough to believe those things.

  214. Hoover101

    SmaugTheTerrible Blyndfayth  I understand the premise behind creating a communist utopia and agree that it is nice in theory. However, the theory is fatally flawed and disillusioned because people do not function simply off of altruism. 
    I'm an altruistic person. I do nice things for others without any expectation of reciprocity but not even for a second would I conceive of living my life for the sake of someone else. Communism requires that each person perform the role that is given them without the choice of free will. Does this not resemble slavery to the state and slavery to your fellow man? 
    Where there is capitalism there is not necessarily freedom. But where there is freedom there must exist the necessary condition of capitalism.

  215. ts4petrus

    BlyndfaythYugoslavia was no more socialist than the USSR. It was a centralized dictatorship, just as the USSR was a centralized oligarchy. You want to sample experiments in socialism, go to Britain, France, Austalia, New Zealand. 
    By the way, it was socialism that won us our country, if you like: patriots banded together, and pooled their wealth to achieve something that none of them, as an individual, could do alone. Oh, wait, so our military is supported by socialism! So I would like to choose, instead of this bloated military making war the only answer to any problem we face overseas, that we bring them all home, dismantle the 700 foreign military bases, replace them with just what we need for self-defence, and spend that money on world-class medical care for everyone of us. We could probably get a tax refund out of that deal as well.

  216. ShkelzenNokaj

    RJOGuillory MarcFrischhertz  Omg, you just prooved capitalism is wrong "just lett the Jerry Jones of the league spend any amount they wanted…you would have 4-6 teams with all the wins and everyone else…would be sitting at home", which equals to "BIG COORPORATES HAVING THE MONEY, AND THEN BUYING THE NEXT THING, THEN THE NEXT, THEN ALL OF IT EXPONENTIALLY>, those loosing teams would be random people (or low class people called in capitalism who would never stand on their feet if the big fish keeps on biting them)

  217. SmaugTheTerrible

    Hoover101 SmaugTheTerrible Blyndfayth If you associate the words altruism and communism, but not altrusim and capitalism, then you misunderstand both greatly. 

    Did you take the time to go and look over the last reply I gave you? You should do that before proceeding in conversation. It will clarify the conversation somewhat. 

    Well, except for one point I will go ahead and correct you on. Freedom predates capitalism (and all forms of economy). Capitalism is not a component of freedom, it's not a relative of freedom. Those two words shouldn't even live in the same place in your brain. You recall that 200,000 years ago when your anatomically correct ancestors became persistence hunters, they were free, and not one of them got paid for it or had to pay someone else for it, or trade for it, or any other economic activity.

  218. Hoover101

    SmaugTheTerrible Hoover101 Blyndfayth  I understand fully that altruism must be present for the communist utopia to work. 

    I read your last comment but failed to establish any link between Da Vinci's flying machine and the reasons why communism never lead to utopia. Technology isn't the reason that utopia never formed (i.e form of Communism where there is no state and there are no classes). The only reason that communism didn't work was because nobody was willing to work without receiving benefit. 

    You are right though that capitalism and freedom are not the same. China's economy is capitalist and lacks freedom but I still contend that in order for a nation to be free it must posses the necessary condition of capitalism.

    You are also correct that freedom predates capitalism. I wont argue with you there.

  219. starvinmarvinthehutt

    thestumblingblock You are an idiot if you think somalia has no government. Somalias main problems have been caused by government.

  220. starvinmarvinthehutt

    SmaugTheTerrible starvinmarvinthehutt MarcFrischhertz Obviously you have a hard time with reading comprehension. Voluntary exchange always benefits both parties. Coercion (anything the government does) is not voluntary. If someone offers someone a wage and they accept, that is voluntary and both are benefiting, otherwise one party would not agree to it.

  221. starvinmarvinthehutt

    thestumblingblock starvinmarvinthehutt BenEstrada
    he is implying we need government force for these things. In reality we dont need to point guns at each other for people to get healthcare

  222. Hoover101

    starvinmarvinthehutt SmaugTheTerrible MarcFrischhertz 

    He's right Smaug The Terrible. You can try to convolute ideas but the fact is that people generally do not make exchanges in a capitalist system unless both parties benefit from the exchange. The benefits do not necessarily need to be equal for them to be desirable.    

    I question your logic and thought process on this issue and truly wonder if you understand the loss of self worth that accompanies communism.

  223. SmaugTheTerrible

    starvinmarvinthehutt SmaugTheTerrible MarcFrischhertz Repeating yourself does not make you correct. There are many reasons why people take deals, and valuation is a science unto itself. Just writing off decades of social science (not that I would expect you to be familiar with such gems as risk aversion, loss aversion, prospect theory or other cognitive biases that cause humans to misweigh options) is incredibly intellectually dishonest.

  224. SmaugTheTerrible

    Hoover101 starvinmarvinthehutt SmaugTheTerrible MarcFrischhertz  You have spent a lot of time responding to all of my comments.. except the ones where I dissembled your original logic. That is to say that you seem to be extraordinarily vocal everyone except where I was talking to you. Why is that? 

    Anyway, convoluting ideas? Is that what we call science now? It's complex, therefore he must be trying to confuse us? is that the thinking here? If these systems were so simple, they would be a lot easier to correct when they go astray and they would inherently be a lot less problematic., They aren't simple, and not only because human interaction isn't simple (too much of me to ask that you have some background in game theory before coming to a conversation about economics?) but also because we've built up complex bureaucratic and legislative systems around an already complex system of interaction. The fact is that "benefit" is a soft analysis. Something that alleviates an emotion, "benefits" us. It doesn't matter if the person selling you the solution created the emotional problem to begin with in such a shallow analysis as yours and starvinmarvinthehutt's. Nor would it matter that such a benefit (a return to the baseline or original reference point) would be worthless the instant it was gained, while the value of whatever they traded away for it would possibly persist or grow. Saying that people benefit from exchanges in the system assumes rational choosers (which, again, gonna go out on a limb and say you know very little cognitive science if you think the rational chooser model applies, given that it's been debunked repeatedly) and assumes informed decisions. 
    You can question my logic all you want. Just don't call my commentary convoluted when it is sufficiently complex to meet the explanatory power requirements for the topic. Occam's razor works both ways, friend. 

    " if you understand the loss of self worth that accompanies communism."

    No, I don't understand that at all. Tell me, what special component of being a wage slave from 9-5 is it that imbues in each of us an acute sense of self worth that being a part of a communist or socialist system wouldn't.

  225. SmaugTheTerrible

    Hoover101 SmaugTheTerrible Blyndfayth  

    " I understand fully that altruism must be present for the communist utopia to work. "

    BUZZZ! Incorrect. This is also why you did not understand my abstraction about divinci. For the record I was referring to my earier comment to you, not in the reply stack for blyndfayth.

  226. FreeJay

    JeffreyEdmonds – Anyone who doesn't understand that socialism has always been a way for the power-hungry to pretend they care about the poor in order to take control needs to take more history classes.

    Of course Obama's a socialist, just like every other socialist, once he takes power, all the promises about helping the poor and downtrodden evaporate. Next you'll be telling us that Stalin wasn't really a communist, because he didn't really help anybody either. Socialism was never about helping the poor, how many examples of socialism failing do we need to have before you gullible liberals realize that?

  227. jasonstuartperry

    I wonder why there are no names associated with this bullshit post. I wonder if the author of this bullshit post is grateful for the freedom he/she enjoys to be able to scrawl bullshit posts of this sort. Some of you are just dumb enough to want to proliferate this type of bullshit. Well carry on retards – you have a right to free speech as well I suppose.

  228. jasonstuartperry

    CynthiaPalumboDo you actually think this is real? If so, I have a bridge I would like to sell you.

  229. FreeJay

    ts4petrus – Socialism as an economic system is defined by state ownership and control of the means of production. Calling the colonial revolution "socialist" just because people cooperate together is truly the depths of stupidity and dishonesty. You have no clue what you are talking about. 

    I can't believe how many self-proclaimed "socialists" have never even read Marx and make ignorant comments like, "The post office is socialism!"

  230. ErikGruber

    ImrightYourWrong MarcFrischhertz BenEstrada Yes, but most of European countries would be considered socialist, namely most of the ones you mentioned.

  231. Spazzin

    Hoover101 Bingo! Capitalism provides "freedom" to be anything you want to be. It however does not guarantee that you will be successful. The problem is that there are too many that aren't willing to put in the effort it takes to succeed. They are much more interested in voting for politicians that will confiscate others wealth for their gain.

  232. aWorldQuiteMad

    GaetanodI think you've confused 'free market capitalism', which has served the US well for most of its history with 'crony capitalism'. If you think that socialism or communism is better, then move to N. Korea, or Cuba, or any of the other countries that spout that ridiculous crap. Sure that system of governance looks real good on paper, but in practice has always been an utter failure. So many people have no understanding of business, history, political theory, economics, etc, and they get to run their mouths on the internet.

  233. SeanRembach

    FreeJay although i agree with what your saying there is a much greater arguement as to why stalin was not a communist. regardless all american politicians have been socialists since fdr.

  234. aWorldQuiteMad

    thecreature8IF wishes were horses, then beggars would ride. IF a bull frog had wings, it wouldn't bump it's arse. IF the dog hadn't stopped to take a whiz… well you get the idea. The idea that we can create a utopia where everyone is equal has, every time, without exception, where it managed to be carried out (usually at the point of a sword or the barrel of a gun) wound up being a dictatorship where a small group of people are in charge and everyone else is equal, equal in poverty and oppression. EVERY TIME. You can posit 'what if' questions all day long, but you'd make better money delivering pizzas and putting the earnings into a stable mutual fund with a long track record. lolololol

  235. aWorldQuiteMad

    ErikGruberImrightYourWrongMarcFrischhertzBenEstradaActually they are only partially socialist. The government owns certain things, like health care (though there is a private system if you can pay for it), the rail system, etc. But they are not socialist completely. You can still own a private business in those countries, but why would you want to? The tax rates if you make much money are phenomenal. They are confiscatory after a certain point, in which case why would anyone want to bother? And that's why black markets thrive there. They estimate that Italy has a black market that is equivalent to their GDP.

    At any rate, I believe that many here have mistaken 'welfare state' for 'socialism' because in classical socialism, the worker gets what they need. If you don't work, you don't get anything, not food, nothing! Read some of the writings from the late 19th and early 20th century. Kropotkin and many other socialist/communist writers referred to people who didn't work as leeches. Nothing but uneducated morons on the internet nowadays, acting like they know something because they read a wikipedia article on it. Sheesh.

  236. MatthewMcKnight

    example of "socialism" displays straw man and false comparison fallacies. Many high
    school students don't "want" to be there, meaning it isn't an accurate
    display of socialism. Under a socialized government, people pursue
    careers that appeal to their innate talents
    and lead to self-actualization (people pick majors/careers they enjoy
    and that best suits them). Under the current system, only a handful of
    professions are considered "safe" and well paying, so you have a lot of
    people picking careers that do not reflect their talents. Not only does
    the individual suffer an unhappy existence (or unhappy "career life",
    at least) under this model, but society also misses out on numerous
    just had a wonderful experience with socialism in one of my graduate
    courses. Because the students in my class are passionate about the
    subject they are studying and are all highly motivated (they wouldn't
    have been accepted into the program if they weren't), everyone works
    hard which makes group projects similar to the one mentioned in the
    pseudo example you shared beneficial and enriching.
    Also, to call Obama a socialist is to display a fundamental misunderstanding of socialism.

  237. aWorldQuiteMad

    Methinks that a few of the posters on this thread have confused 'socialism' and 'communism' with 'welfare state.' But hey, how could they not? They haven't read any history (or much of anything else), so all they know is some fictionalized idea, that some yahoo on the internet told them about what socialism or communism "really is", and it seeped into their little brains, so deprived of critical thinking skills.  If they had read some history, they'd know that socialism and communism makes the masses equal, equal in poverty, while a few ruling entities wind up filthy rich. If you doubt this, just look at N. Korea, the Soviet Union, eastern Europe in the 1960s/70s, etc etc ad infinitum. Also, Europe is not socialist. They have socialized medicine, but that is not socialism. The State does not own all of the businesses, they just tax anyone who does well a lot so they can have socialized programs. When all of your hard earned income goes to taxes, that takes a bit of the wind out of your sails, and you wonder why you should work so hard, when your money is going to those who don't work. Again, see: Welfare State. The classical socialists/communists like Marx and Kropotkin believed that if you worked, you got what you *needed* (not necessarily what you wanted). Kropotkin called people who didn't work "leeches". That's not very PC now is it? LOL You might want to read up on what you think you believe in.

    Also, see: parable. This story is obviously made up. That doesn't make it any less valid.

    And good luck with your little communist utopian ideas, there ain't enough luck in the world for those who wait around for other people to solve their problems, or who blame other people for said problems. You can take the hand you were dealt and play it, or you can sit around and moan and whine about it. If you wait around for the government (or other people) to fix your life, your life will be a failure.

  238. MatthewMcKnight

    FreeJayJeffreyEdmondsStalin was a Stalinist, not a Communist.  I'm sort of shocked you don't seem to understand the difference.

  239. nomad_newyork

    jwetterlin RobMacDonald JeffWalters1 nomad_newyork AubreyDurkin Are you suggesting that there are no pharmaceuticals coming out of France, England or even out of China? You're right, I should go google China pharmaceutical.

  240. nomad_newyork

    jwetterlin RobMacDonald JeffWalters1 nomad_newyork AubreyDurkin So, countries like Cuba & China don't put any money into R&D and pay for people healthcare instead, right? Do you even bother to research what you write or do you just pull it out of your behind? I mean, I'm not a communist or a socialist but I do believe in the truth.

  241. CJAlexander

    The actual economic and philosophical principle that is being applied here is called Tragedy of the Commons, but I hardly think Socrates was against communism. You guys are mag apple juice out of oranges here!

  242. RalphTetta

    JoeMarolda davemanvell The United States of America is a Democratically elected Constitutional Republic.  It's both.

  243. slowhoa

    COvskiergolfer JeffreyEdmonds You knew socialism and communist come from the same radical resource, it is Karl Marx and Lenin…communist keen to promise, but after taken power, they turn the face and do the other way. In China, Vietnam, when communist needed to get the support, they promised anything, then land owner, rich people contributed money, food…but after communist got government, they launched the landlord reform, and killed all…Obama is as the same, he promised anything, even though he will do the best for economy. His believers got lost hope after more than 5 years in power…

  244. slowhoa

    MatthewMcKnight FreeJay JeffreyEdmonds You don't know and lack knowledge about communist. Karl Marx devised the communist theory and Lenin who transformed Karl Marx into the society, that calls" socialism". If you want to know, please read my first book:" The dark journey: inside the reeducation camps of Vietcong" published in New York, 2010. I spent 30 years to learn English myself and hunt the document…

  245. slowhoa

    ErikGruber slowhoa COvskiergolfer JeffreyEdmonds I am non English Speaking, so English is not my native language. I am ex-Lieut of ARVN, after Saigon lost, I was among 800,000 POW, but 165,000 killed, I am survivor. During the period in re-education camps, I saw Vietcong had the bad treat to prisoners, so I promised myself:" If survival, I will write a book". Obviously, I told my mother in a visit about my risky plan ( English condemned and banned strictly as counter-revolution language", if they knew I learn it, I would be killed or tortured)…My mother torn off a pocket dictionary by pieces then used the rice glue stuck as newspaper sheets, she wrapped food and sent to jail ( every 3 months). I ate food and learned quiet the word by word. I had no allow to read, but I wrote into the air, my inmates confirmed I was mad. After 5 years, the pocket dictionary done. In 198I, I was released by illness. 1982 I escaped from Vietnam and 1983, I resettled anew life in Australia. I spent the other 25 years for self learning English, not school, and hunted the document. I had three books published: The dark journey, good evening Vietnam and from laborer to author. I have learnt English myself and learnt from the mistake…there is no one perfect. I am sorry, English is not my language…thank for your asking.( You may read my books and know how my life)

  246. Robertocarlosaprea

    Este experimento es una estupidez, la nota no es un premio al esfuerzo del estudiante, es la evaluacion para certificar si esta en condiciones de ejercer su profesion. Si el estado se encargara de hacer la educacion gratuita eso no tendria por que ir en desmedro de la calidad de la misma y el costo que la sociedad asumiria seria devuelto por mayor cantidad de profesionales a mas bajo precio. Imaginen por ejemplo como bajaria el costo de la salud si se duplicara o triplicara la cantidad de medicos.

  247. ChristopherKoda

    1:  any of various economic and political theories advocating
    collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of
    production and distribution of goods
    2a:  a
    system of or group living in which there is no private property
    b:  a
    system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and
    controlled bythe state
    3:  a stage of society in theory transitional between… and… and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay
    according to work done 
    So according to Wikipedia you are wrong.  But Communist like you have no clue.

  248. NYCMOM

    WRONG!!!!  WE Are not a Democratic Nation.  We are a Representative (Constitutional) 
    What moron social studies/history teacher taught you we are a Democratic nation?
    Back to elementary school for you Dave!

  249. thecreature8

    aWorldQuiteMad The difference between the "what if" statements I made and that nonsense is my statements are not necessarily impossible. The situations you are using as examples, which I agree, consume every documented example of an attempt at a "utopian" society, were thwarted by greed, which I was hoping people would think about as a result of the "what ifs", rather than frog butts. Do I honestly think that kind of society is possible on a large scale? Not currently, but I do think it can work on a smaller scale with a group of like-minded individuals who value communal wellness over wealth. Then again, I do not believe the self-governing principals of capitalism have proven themselves incredibly effective either. Replace the small group of people running a dictatorship in your example with the top 1% in the United States and you have the same situation. History repeats itself when people fail to see what caused problems in the. Maybe it's more important to me to post "what if" questions all day long and try to make a single person think about something in another light than make money.

  250. NickMatherne

    NYCMOM davemanvell  Yes we are a republic, but that doesn't prevent us from labeling ourselves as the "Arsenal of Democracy."  America decided a long time ago that we thought we would sound better if we called ourselves a Democracy and therefore at least in the context of the United States, calling our nation a Democracy is a logical statement that reflects current trends and perceptions about the way in which our government functions.  It is entirely unfair of you to make fun of that poster because he makes the same comment that almost everyone in our nation claims just because it is technically incorrect.   Another poster chose to point out that Socialism is an economic strategy and that it was not the same as a governmental style.  Why did you feel the need to harp on a detail and make someone feel bad rather than making a point relevant to the actual discussion at hand.  I am obviously following your comment more than the actual discussion by responding to your comment, but I honestly feel that what you did is wrong and is entirely belittling to Dave and counterproductive to discussion.

  251. ChristopherKoda

    JeffreyEdmondsNo it you who need to take a political science class.  But look up Obama's words "Redistribution of wealth", "economic equality", they read straight out of Karl Marx, Communist Manifesto.

  252. jrcoffee62

    If the state can tax a business, and has he authority to determine at what rate to tax it, then the state owns the business, and the Business Owner owns the ILLUSION of ownership.

  253. thephantompress

    MatthewMcKnight do you always just spit forth terms learned in English 101 to make yourself feel like you know what your talking about. Are you really expecting us to believe your career picking argument is the cornerstone of why socialism works. If you really are such a brainiac why don't you site an actual case example or haven't you learned how to look up scholarly examples yet.

  254. StevenMichaelSajor

    So we've discovered that the people, with the means to help their
    fellow man, fail to find justification when they're not being rewarded? 
    We're never going to get to the Star Trek age unless it's sponsored by
    Coca Cola and manned by martian immigrants.  Socialism has no chance of
    sustaining itself especially when the need to punish different ideas is
    eager and looming.  The reason for the great expanse between wealthy and
    poor is to make sure that everyone can't afford a mansion stronghold
    and competitive armories.  One day we'll escape the dark age of fake
    money and make examples of those who impeded progress…one day

  255. SmaugTheTerrible

    StevenMichaelSajor  That has always been my argument. We're never going to make it to star trek this way.Strangely enough, I think the star trek universe has money, but the side of the federation we're exposed to is socialist in nature or appears to be.

  256. JasonShoup

    Yeah, I can think of a good reason not to share it: this story seems to be bogus.  If it's real, why doesn't the journalist cite the name of the professor or the college?  Sure, you might argue it's a parable, but then again, parables don't really belong on website whose masthead says it's dedicated to "assassinating liberal lies with documented facts."

  257. DanORants

    RalphTetta No, it's not.  Part of being a Constitutional Republic means we elect our representatives through a democratic process.  Doing this, by no way, makes us a Democracy.

  258. ErikGruber

    DanORants RalphTetta Laws are made by and voted by representatives ot individuals, therefore it's technically a republic

  259. ErikGruber

    JasonShoup That seems to the general consensus here. Total made-up crap, or at least I hope so since this economics professor didn't realize he was demonstrating communism, as oppose to socialism.

  260. RyanCHass

    The difference here is work pays off in the original system if you study and work hard you get a better grade, while in life a person depending on where he was born on the socio-economic scale can work three jobs and still have to choose which bill to pay that month. People lose incentive to work when work means nothing.

  261. JasonShoup

    RyanCHass Actually, generally you get good grades in a class if you get good grades on its homework & tests.  You don't necessarily have to study or work hard; cheating would also get you to the same place, wouldn't it?  Likewise, sometimes in real life, hard work doesn't really pay off or guarantee results.  It's a nice comforting myth to believe in, though.

  262. JasonShoup

    jwetterlin RobMacDonald RosieMaty GregPack Not so much as "exempt" as "it's illegal for them to enroll in it."  Are you "exempt" from murdering people?

  263. JasonShoup

    This earlier comment is the best yet: " If you showed the flip side of this argument and had the class's grades represent our current economic system, it would look like this: Let's say there are 20 people in the class, and a total of 2000 points available. (100 points per student) 1 student (the top 10%) gets 70% percent of the points, or 1400 points. He/she finishes the class with a 1400% in the class, or an A. This leaves 19 students with 600 points available. So the best each of these students could get in the class at this point would be a 1.6%, or F's. I'm guessing most you commenters would relate to the 19 kids, but for some reason many of you feel the need to argue on behalf of the A student.
    For all of you touting your vast historical and economic knowledge base, you should know that before the the great depression economic inequality was at an unsustainable level. This was caused in large part by unregulated capitalism. Again we see economic inequality is rising to dangerously high levels. (to high for a healthy economy) "

    Supporters of this article:  what would you if you were in a class where 1 person was able to pass, at the expense of everybody's else's failure?

    Sure, my question is a hypothetical situation, but so is the original article.

  264. JeanLucUlmer

    JasonShoup  The problem with your bout here is that it is falsely based on satire. This isn't your fault, you've been lead to believe this for a long time, and it's kind of hard to change that opinion. The problem was and has never been unregulated capitalism, our problem has always been government dipping into and aiding corporations with tax payer dollars (subsidies.) The government in every occasion has been in the game of helping those "too big too fail." That is not capitalism, it is cronyism. It is somewhat annoying for me to explain that to people who very loosely know about free market economics. The wealth marginalization that you're talking about has come with the devaluation of our currency, as well as subsidization in arbitrary market areas.

  265. JeanLucUlmer

    JasonShoup RyanCHass Cheating would not get you in the same place, as good grades don't guarantee you wealth. What you learn most from college is how to learn. The stage of college is usually for young adults seeking a specific field, or at least an education in a specific field; however, the transformation that happens to a student during that time is vast. If a student spends his time cheating, and not gaining integral values from school, he/she will be less likely to find success.

  266. JasonShoup

    JeanLucUlmer Isn't this original article also satire?  (or a parable, at best?)  Do you really have no objection to its example?  By the way, how do you know what I've been 'lead to believe'?  Do you know me that well just from merely reading a couple of sentences I wrote?  Or from the sentences I didn't even write, but that I copied & pasted & quoted from another commenter?  If so, I'm impressed.

    I probably shouldn't have pasted that 2nd paragraph there, but I do think the first paragraph is interesting.

    I have a conflicted view on the distribution of wealth in this country.  People like Bill Gates or Warren Buffet have wealth equivalent to a huge percentage of their countrymen, but I believe they earned it (fairly, more or less) and I can't begrudge them for their success.  But on the other hand, to have so much wealth concentrated in the hands of so few is probably not a good thing for society at large.

    I've always been struck at the demonization of socialist ideas and countries, particularly when many countries of that persuasion seem to lead the world when it comes to 'quality of living' scores.

  267. JasonShoup

    JeanLucUlmer JasonShoup RyanCHass " Learning how to learn" is still not the same as studying or working hard.

  268. ChristopherKoda

    ErikGruberJasonShoupBut the definition of Socialism puts it as a step towards communism. 
    1:  any of various economic and political theories advocating
    collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of
    production and distribution of goods
    2a:  a
    system of or group living in which there is no private property
    b:  a
    system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and
    controlled bythe state
    3:  a stage of society in theory transitional between… and… and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay
    according to work done

  269. JasonShoup

    RyanCHass "When works means nothing".  Maybe part of this issue is doing something purely for money, instead of really wanting to do something for its own merit, or for personal achievement, or for pride.  Sure, it's naive to expect somebody to not care at all about money, but if that's your primary or majority reason to work, I think that's a sad approach. 

    I've been reading that Steve Jobs bio lately and was struck by how he didn't seem to care about money much; for him, it was always about making something cool or beautiful.  Money was the fruit of that labor, but not his motivation.  What if you were motivated in your work and life by something other than money?

      I've known a lot of rich people who were solely focused on money and making more of it, and most of them were awful, awful people who added very little to mankind.  You want to talk about the homeless or welfare recipients being leeches on the world? Go for it, but don't forgot that rich people might be just as bad in their own way.

  270. ChristopherKoda

    JasonShoupChristopherKodaErikGruberThe point being that those who profess to be socialist are really just one step away from communist.  And we have seen what communist and their all being equal gets you.

  271. ShawnSuiters

    I think the point has been missed by a few, lets back up the educated comments for a second and not think. Its simple, taking from some and giving to all leaves for NO incentives to continue to do great things in America. What incentive would one have to invent new software, medical equipment and so on? Because they love it, Im not sure that is right. I love my job but I like the money too. It provides for my family whom I wirk very hard to ensure they have some of the finer things in life.
    But what some are saying is that everyone can have an iPad or xbox or whatever? I throw the bullshit flag on that one. If you have no incentive to thrive then there will be no iPad for everyone. Lets face it (not saying there are not descent people) but people are assholes from whom most will do little as possible in their lives. Just look at our society shifting from the hard back-breaking labor in the early to mid 1900's until today. Its pathetic we have eveolved to a state that I believe is our massive downfall taking the same spiriling journey as Greece, Rome and many other great nations of the past……..

  272. ErikGruber

    ChristopherKoda ErikGruber JasonShoup Be that as it may. Call a Spade a Spade. What's being described is not socialism, which is misleading for those who don't already know the difference.

  273. jjbb88

    I call BS.  A prof would get fired for failing everyone.  

    It also sounds like he used an incorrect grading scale.  If it were a standard bell curve, or a normalized distribution, there would have to be enough students in the passing range to bring the median to passing or higher.  

    Also econ is easy.  I aced that crap without studying.

  274. HarryCrew07

    There are a lot of good points made in this article, However, this article completely misses one large section of the economy. The economy only functions the way it does because of the working poor. There are many people who work 50+ hours a week at jobs that are necessary and undervalued/underpaid.  If society could be structured in a way that does not necessitate taking away what the wealthy have made, but instead values and rewards the real work that all citizens do, I think we would move towards a society that works better for everyone.  Unfortunately, some of the most wealthy are only there on the backs of the working poor, whose labor is not valued yet today.  Each piece of the puzzle of our society must be valued in a way that provides a real living wage.

  275. jjbb88

    RyanCHass Honestly from what I've observed the strict grading system encourages cheating, not hard work.  Although I will yield that if students in my classes tried as hard on their studies as they did on cheating, they would probably get an A anyways.

  276. ErikGruber

    ChristopherKoda JasonShoup ErikGruber That's like saying being Christian is one step way from being in the KKK.

  277. joeroppolo

    The fallacy with Jason's arguement, with all due respect to Jason, is that wealth is not a finite thing.  It can indeed multiply as we have seen through the growth in economies over many centuries.  In the free enterprise system, wealth can truly be created.  So, to assume that one must take from another to achieve wealth or that there is only a limited amount to go around is simply incorrect. 
    Thus, in your scenario, there are actually an unlimited number of A's to go around if the people are willing to work for them.  In the free enterprise system, this means creating or becoming somehting of value to others.

  278. V7Theory

    JasonShoup First, you've incorrectly identified the flip side. The flip side is what was already happening, each student earned what they worked for. What you've suggested is the garbage you ate up right out of the media:that money is an object and that there is a finite amount of wealth (which means it can't be created or destroyed, only moved around). That is a silly and juvenile argument, which would be solved by simply printing more money if it were true. One thing you've got to get through your head is that money is (roughly) just a representation of the importance of goods and products in society – it's what we agree it is. Everyone could be far more OR far less wealthy (have more/less things and a better/worse standard of living) and the balance of money could stay the exact same, so to say that one person has to take from another to achieve wealth is silly. If I move to the desert and build a house out of dirt, can you say that I took that dirt house from everyone who didn't have it? Can you say that every time I record a song or carve an animal out of a branch that I took that from someone? And when I provide services like teaching martial arts or ballet can you say that I'm taking money from people and that they aren't willingly giving it up? Do you see how the media has simplified your view of currency quite significantly?

  279. SmaugTheTerrible

    JeanLucUlmer JasonShoup Was the problem government when corporations formed monopolies and ran entire industries out of business, only to capitalize on their new found power and raise prices with the full knowledge that there was no alternative source for their goods? Was the problem the government when children lost arms climbing in heavy machinery during the industrial revolution? Was the problem the government when corporations would dump toxic waste in local freshwater, laying waste to ecosystems, or into the ocean (let's talk about BP, shall we?)? Was the problem the government when people colluded to fix prices? Was the problem the government when people participated in, and cashed in on, insider trading? Let me know the moment when the government became the problem.

  280. JasonShoup

    "Incentive" does not always equate into "money."  

    Sure, money can be a big motivator, but tell me: if you do anything, do you only do it because you were paid to? 

    No?  Didn't think so.

    Do you know ANYBODY like that?  (Actually, I do know a few people like that, and they're awful, soulless monsters whom I wouldn't save if I saw them drowning in a lake- even if they paid me to- but that's another story). 

    If "incentive" was only about money, imagine the kind of society we'd live in, where people would do nothing if it didn't result in getting money.  Would you raise a family, or do something for your kids… if they didn't pay you for your services?  Would you help a neighbor if there wasn't something in it on the back end?   Why would you recycle your trash, if there's nobody paying you to do it?

     If we were only out for money, wouldn't we all be pursuing high-paid jobs, regardless of the pleasure we take in the work, the role we play, or the things we create?

    And ask yourself:  would you rather live in that "downward spiraling society" where people aren't incentivized primarily by money, and instead in one where other incentives take are more important?

  281. SmaugTheTerrible

    V7Theory JasonShoup Except that isn't a true representation of our current economic system. People aren't born at the same starting point and aren't availed the same opportunities. By default, someone whose family has an economic advantage is more likely to gain advantages early in life that have a non-linear and compounded impact on their fiscal success in life. Suggesting that a class, with its specific motiviations, it's double bounded reward system, and completely synthetic (and controlled) system of interaction to a free market is not only incorrect, but it makes an informed individual wonder how you could ever conceive of it as being such. 

    You then go on to speak about goods and services, of which there are a finite amount, as though it isn't a zero sum game. Tell me, do you think real estate is a zero sum game? Because until they begin construction of floating island cities (China's are in production. You can also google floating concrete to educate yourself.) it is. There is a finite amount and there are only two ways of acquiring it. You get it from someone that knows they own the land or you get it from someone that doesn't (ie aborigines in whatever unclaimed land remains on the planet). There is a finite amount of sulfur currently on the market. There is a finite amount of wood currently on the market, and even if you take into account the lumber industry, there is a finite amount being currently processed and a finite amount being currently grown and of course, a finite maximum amount of possible wood that can be grown at any given time. Let's talk some more about your analysis of this lack of a zero sum game though. Does it apply to businesses? Are there an infinite amount of consumers? Is there an infinite market share for two businesses occupying the same industry niche? Or is it the case that typically one of several competitors fails or is purchased by the superior brand in their industry? Didn't snapchat just turn down a $3B deal offered by facebook to purchase them? Hmmmm. Curious. 

    By the way, it's intellectually dishonest to conflate a strawman and the original point by purposefully using loaded language like "take".

  282. JasonShoup

    SmaugTheTerrible JeanLucUlmer JasonShoup No, the problem was/ is greedy people.  I don't think that will change anytime soon.

  283. haroldburbank

    nonsense.  china, russia, and all of the western industrial world but the usa have national health care. 
    all of the nations still exist.  the prof based the experiment on so may false and misleading assumptions, economic and otherwise, the class was a farce.  nations are not college classes.  a government CAN compel, take, own, and transfer wealth almost at will.  college students cannot re grades.  western nations are mixed economies, with private and public wealth, managed differently for different goals.  the wrongs assumed in the experiment are too numerous to mention here.  and, who is to say a different class of utopian students would note study and perform different/altruistically.

  284. SmaugTheTerrible

    ShawnSuiters Never played a team sport before? The desire to succeed isn't linked only to personal incentive.

  285. CJAlexander

    Read "The Republic" by Socrates and you ail better understand what communism is and is not. To say that it does not work because the people who have tried in the past all had hidden agendas is dumb. It is like saying no one should have guns since someone robbed a store once.

  286. ErikGruber

    cj_pomerantz ErikGruber thephantompress Nah, if you're going to condescend you deserve to be scrutinized.

  287. JeffWalters1

    RyanCHass If someone is working three jobs and still can't pay their bills it is A) a case of total ignorance of how to manage money, or B) they are trying to live way above their means. If you make $25,000 a year you shouldn't try to buy a $200,000 home or drive a BMW. Buy a $50,000 dollar home and drive a dependable used car. I don't feel sorry for people who don't have a clue about money management or how to live with what you have.

  288. cj_pomerantz

    ChristopherKoda JasonShoup ErikGruber To further pound home Erik's point:
    Anyone who is pro life is one step away from shooting an abortion doctor.
    Anyone who is a muslim is mere moments from flying a plane into a building.
    Anyone who has a drink is one sip away from alcoholism.

  289. cj_pomerantz

    JeffWalters1 RyanCHass And where do you suggest they find this $50K home?  And work at any of their three jobs?

  290. SmaugTheTerrible

    joeroppolo I'm surprised anyone can read anything over that racket? What is that? Oh, it's the sound of the next bust in the cycle further widening the gap between the rich and the poor and putting the middle class in poverty conditions. 

    Tell me more about how the wealthy do not become wealthy (exclusively or otherwise) by taking money from others. While I wait, I'll just go to McDonald's for some food that someone who must necessarily earn the wages they pay them has to make for the owner's of the franchise to succeed.

  291. JeffWalters1

    CJAlexander Communism never has and never will work in this World because all of Mankind is corrupted by sin. Some are more evil than others, but even those who believe and follow Christ are still far from perfect. That is why trying to make all property communal and distribute it to cover everyone's needs always has and always will fail. To make the system work on a large scale, you must appoint leaders, whether it is one dictator or a committee. Their corruption always will cause them to covet the best for themselves and they will skim it or outright steal it. The farmers who produce food and the workers who produce goods will always fall prey to discouragement and apathy when they see the bounty passing thru their hands every day, but they only get scraps and rags to cover their needs. Usually attempts at Communist Government result in a Dictatorship, because the meanest dog always ends up on top of the pile. In the 20th Century, Communism (whether practiced in its pure form or not) resulted in the deaths of approximately 80 million people, through wars, starvation thru the mismanagement of the economy and agriculture, political purges, nuclear disasters through mismanagement or sheer indifference, genocides and so on and so forth. I suppose that Capitalism has killed some people also, but the number is a drop in the bucket compared to Communist/Socialist Governments.

  292. TomAdkins

    CJAlexanderJeffWalters is wrong. Communism fails because even the most principled and pious person understands there is no reason to work if his money is stolen at the end of the day, and given to someone who doesn't work.
    Any socialism of any kind fails for this reason. The greater the redistributive theft, the less incentive to produce.

  293. Bigbird4901

    I had a class where everyone failed too, it was just an absolutely terrible teacher. The tests were nonsensical. The class started with 50 people and ended with 4, we all got F's Unbelievable. Was this on the students or the teacher?  By the way, did the tests get harder during the quarter?

  294. TomAdkins

    Anyone with a brain in their head will cease to
    work when their money is stolen and given to someone who doesn't work.
    The greater the redistributive theft, the less incentive to work.That's why France, which is very socialist, produces marginally, and North Korea, which is 100% communist, doesn't even produce enough food to feed itself…yet Hong Kong, with utterly no natural resources, has one of the highest standards of living in the world.
    Socialism is a vile concept based upon the greatest petty human emotion: Jealousy. And anyone who defend redistribution of any kind is either incredibly naive, or equally vile.

  295. hanchueh

    TomAdkins Funny then how is socialist China having a 7.8% economic growth? Also Ireland has the highest Quality-of-life score in the world, and they achieve it with a socialist welfare system.
    Socialism as defined no longer exists in the first world countries. Many countries have social welfare which actively helps the country with stability and growth. That is now being called by the right wing in the US as socialism, but it really isn't.

  296. KeithDavidson

    hanchuehTomAdkins pulled that 7.8% number out of your ass. China is in deep trouble as has been proven by global economists who have revealed that China has been fudging their GDP numbers. The only things that have saved China to this point is because they have lent a boatload of money, from which they are getting paid back with crazy interest from many countries, including America where your precious socialism, as it has done everywhere else, is failing miserably. Also, China has introduced many Western type free-market principles into their economy and this is the reason they have any growth at all. That's why you can find KFC, Burger King and privately owned shoe stores, book stores and tailors and such in China. Has it ever occurred to you that if you have to lie and manipulate and distort the facts to advance your cause, then maybe your cause sucks? Probably not.

  297. TomAdkins

    hanchuehTomAdkinsChina is seeing economic growth precisely because they are becoming more capitalist. What a dopey question.

  298. KeithBarber1

    Does it bother anyone that this claim of "assassinating liberal lies with documented facts" is for a story that is completely fabricated BS?

    Who is the liar?  Seriously, one of the many tip offs to anyone with a functioning brain is that things like the name of the school and the name of the professor at the school are left out.  There's a reason for that.

  299. KeithDavidson

    CJAlexander To say that it does work when there is not a single example of success is what is dumb. Since the concept was introduced it has failed in every application. It only works on paper because on paper there is one very critical element missing from the equation; the human element. Socialism is a mere vehicle by which a person or political group or military body rises to power and oppressed eventually revolt and the system collapses. Aside from that, a free-market system established for over 200 years (as in America) is the last place socialism would ever work. It's like trying to mix oil and water. Not going to happen. But you're not going to realize that until it's too late and then when you do, you'll just scream, "Damn you, George Bush!! Damn you, Republicans!"

  300. hanchueh

    TomAdkins hanchueh I did not dispute that China is thriving by going capitalist. I was using that statement as sarcasm to show how the term socialist is being misused by the right wing of the US.
    You mention Hong Kong having high standards of living. Did you know that part of the reason is because they have a great public healthcare system that anyone can use freely by having a HK ID?

  301. Schplatt

    Right, because every superstar on the team is there so that his teammates can slack off.
    "Oh, I'm just a second stringer, I don't need to practice or work hard, I'll just ride the coat tails of the stars"
    This is how you get cut from a team.

  302. Schplatt

    More accurate would be, 
    100 points are needed to pass. There are 10 students who can earn 100 points by answering every question correctly.  In a socialist system, we take everyone's final score, no matter how good or bad, and we just average it all out across all the students, but only after waste and corruption loses 200 points, and then the teacher takes another 100 in a tax. We end up giving everyone mediocrity.
    In a capitalist system there are 10 students who all start at 0 but need to get 100 points to pass.  If you answer every question correctly you will earn 100 points.  Some students think of creative and useful ways to do extra work and the teacher does not restrict this.  They are rewarded with extra points for their extra creativity.  Each person is responsible for their own score and it is dependent on their own effort.
    In the USA for the past 80 years the students need 100 points to pass.  But the teacher likes the girl with the big breasts who strokes him when he wants, so she gets a handicap of 50 points to start with.  Another student who needs help offers to pay one of the better students to tutor him outside of class, but the teacher has regulated tutoring to only a select few students that he really likes and so there's just not enough time for everyone to get help.  If you don't follow the teacher's regulations you don't get to tutor and you might even get a hit on your score.  The lazy students who don't study blame the teacher for their lack of performance and in response the school buys them all an Xbox…why? We're not sure…

  303. JeffWalters1

    cj_pomerantzChristopherKodaJasonShoupErikGruber Well, the part about Muslims is pretty close to the truth. The rest of it's bull crap.

  304. JeffWalters1

    cj_pomerantzChristopherKodaJasonShoupErikGruber To put it bluntly, the only difference between Communism and Socialism is that a Socialist will try to achieve his goals by propaganda and sly political maneuvering, while a Communist will just point a gun at your head and say "Let's do this my way, shall we?" They both want to achieve the same ends, they just use different means to get there.

  305. KeithDavidson

    hanchueh Ok libtard. I'll play. What's to say your opinion isn't as fictitious as you say this article is? I don't see you posting anything to the contrary. And even if you did it would most likely be from some libtard, leftist, in-the-tank, Obama-butt-kissing news source that couldn't be trusted to take out the garbage, let alone provide anything useful. Unless you really are mentally handicapped, as libtards tend to be, you can't deny the pure logic of the experiment, even if the article is allegorical. But, don't worry, though. No reason to run to the Xanax bottle. You mindless zombies are winning in your efforts to destroy America because 40 years ago your leaders used the last brain matter you had amongst you to implement the take over of the public school system. You dumbed down the curriculum and kicked God out and as a result we now have kids who easily graduate high school and can't read their diploma but have known how to put a condom on since they were nine years old. After all, everybody knows how important it is to have pre-teens jumping in the sack. Babies making babies so you can abort them. Oh what fun it would be to bump the numbers from 3,500 a day to, say, 8,000, or even 10,000!! And it's better to have a warm fuzzy feeling right now from knowing there won't be any depressed kids who failed the fifth grade, than it is to suck it up and provide extra attention to the kids who need it and thus have an educated America that can compete in the global economy. It's all about how you "feel", right? And hey! The really good part is all the Louis Pastures and George Washington Carvers and Madame Curies and Martin Luther Kings and Albert Einsteins we kept from being born, right? Oh it's so rewarding to be a narrow-minded liberal ass-whipe!

  306. slowhoa

    KeithDavidson CJAlexander Since decade of 1990, The top socialism countries as Russia, Eastern Europe communist Bloc ran away the social modern that designed by a dishonest man, Karl Marx and rejected what Lenin transformed Karl Marx's theory into the reality. The cold war temporarily passed over, but the socialism is still remaining into China, Vietnam, Laos, North Korea and Cuba. The socialism have been rescued by capitalist, likely China, Vietnam open the iron curtain and applying an ugly economic pattern:" free market leads by socialism". Indeed the socialism failed, the most product labelled from the communist country could meet the good quality as the airplane of Russia often being accident or " made in China" without long lasting. It is the consequence of socialism into product, so Russia has to take long time for fix.
    The communist countries above recognized the socialism doesn't work and they tipped  into the rubbish bin, why do some one in the western states are still dreaming the communist paradise?. The socialism is like a fake cake with colorful decoration, 100 million killed is enough and enough.

  307. JeffWalters1

    SmaugTheTerriblejoeroppoloIf you have any income at all you either create it yourself by running your own business, or you work for one of those "evil" wealthy people who writes you a check every week out of their bank account. I have worked many jobs and every paycheck I ever got came from a wealthy person. The wealthy become wealthy by investing in and running a business successfully, which is (in and of itself) a lot of hard work. If they want to share that wealth with me in return for my time and talent, I'm all for it. And, since they are the ones who risked their money and reputation to establish a profitable business, I don't begrudge them their more than comfortable lifestyle.

  308. payingattention

    KeithDavidson hanchueh Okay, sir.  I can see that you have a point with this one (especially about how well the fabricated experiment proved this theory), but, honestly, years ago, the educational system wasn't that sublime.  Honestly, everyone's grade point average rode on very minimal fuel back then.  Additionally, there is no need to become so overly righteous and offensive with your language.  You can portray an opinion with better diction and less profanity.  Honestly, I am appalled that you would post such a vulgar, insensitive comment that implied that this person believes in every angle of  what a liberal stands for.  Also, do you think that children nowadays are getting pregnant because of liberal decisions?  If so, then you must be mistaken.  Teenagers receive sexual education and choose to have sex.  There are many teenagers who are at the forefront of the abortion debate who support abortion.  Some of these teenagers are desperate.  If someone is willing to kill their baby through abortion, who says they won't take their own measures to get rid of one?  Why make a child into a murder of their own device?  I have read a couple of articles about young girls killing their children after birth.  And, no, I am not justifying their actions, if anything, I promote abstinence.  Sadly, with today's society, that most likely will not happen.

    Have a great day.


  309. kvec

    TomAdkins I would argue that socialism is not based upon the emotion of jealousy as you say but on empathy. We are all on this planet, in our countries, in our communities together. In my opinion, and the opinion of a lot of people in the world, an empathetic "let's help each other out" viewpoint is more beneficial to society than a selfish "what's mine is mine" attitude.

  310. ChristopherKoda

    kvecJeffWalters1cj_pomerantzChristopherKodaJasonShoupErikGruberChristopherKodaChristopherKodaChristopherKod a or group living in which there is no private property
    b:  a
    system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and
    controlled bythe state
    3:  a stage of society in theory transitional between… and… and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay
    according to work done This is wikipedia's definition so it is you who has no xclue as to what you are spouting as fact.

  311. JeffWalters1

    kvecJeffWalters1I don't need an education in the classic definitions of Communism and Socialism. I have an IQ of 138 and I understand those things well. What I'm talking about is the practical application of both systems, which have been proven, several times over, to be a miserable failure, and resulted in the untimely deaths of between 80 and 100 million people in the 20th Century. I didn't realize I was hiding my true colors either. Every comment I have made on this subject has been plainly anti Socialism and pro Capitalism.

  312. rwgonzalez01

    hanchuehTomAdkins an HK ID to get healthcare. That would not work over here as we have to allow illegal immigrants healthcare. We would also have people saying its racist as they have to show a ID and not everyone can afford a ID.

  313. Zachary Raphael Pina

    KeithDavidson hanchueh When someone opens with the term "Libtard" you know they are going to be a wealth of bias, and hilarious remarks.  Don't worry, some Democrats say stupid things too like "Faux News".  You extremists are funny with your endless lines of "witty" insults.  I'm sure you've won many arguments, sir.  Keep at it.

  314. Maura

    he really failed everyone? sorry but that is ridiculous. you can't make a political point at the expense of paying students.

  315. smithkey08

    rwgonzalez01 hanchueh TomAdkins We don't allow illegals anything, they can use emergency services due to hospital policies but they get no healthcare or anything beyond that, they have no proof of residence or citizenship. And I don't see how an illegal immigrant would even be able to get an ID since they would have no birth certificate or social security card. So requiring an ID would solve the illegals mooching our healthcare problem. Also not everyone can afford an ID? After a quick perusing of the DMV website, state ID cards range from $6 to $20 and are valid from 4 to 8 years. If you can't afford that then shit, I don't know what to say. You have bigger issues to worry about than politics, illegals, and healthcare.

  316. smithkey08

    KeithDavidson hanchueh And it is people like you in the party that made me switch to a more center/center left position, holy shit. You may also want to double check who is wanting to change the curriculum and cut the educational systems budgets and funding. As for the pre-teens having babies, who's pushing abstinence-only sex education? How is that working out according to you (teen pregnancy is actually declining but why fact check, am I right?)? I'll say you are regurgitating talking points because every election that's all the Republicans talked about and mailed me shit about.

  317. CantSufferFools

    KeithDavidson hanchueh you realize that you just said that even though preteens can use condoms, they are making babies to abort. Which would imply that they didn't learn how to use a condom.  As a graduate of our educational system I can tell you that I was never taught how to use a condom, it was simply recommended that I use one if i do have sex.  By the way way to use as many buzzwords as possible to try to win your argument.  By the way, if your worried about god being kicked out of school maybe you shouldn't go around calling people things like libtard or ass-whipe (<- also wipe is mispelled, spell check is your friend).  Not really a christian way of going about things (that is unless its the year 1300)

  318. hanchueh

    smithkey08 KeithDavidson hanchueh Actually I classify myself as an independent and not a Democrat. Although I agree with the left wing of US more than the right, I still look at each policy independently. For example I support the death penalty. I voted to keep the death penalty in California which became the result.
    On the issue of abortion, I believe it should be legal. Yes, there is a danger of it being abused and becoming like murder, so there must be very detailed rules and watchdog organizations set up to make sure all legal abortions have good reasons, such as the result of rape and/or incest. I believe these rules should be written to preserve the mother's physical, psychological, and economic well-being and not according to some religious doctrine.
    On the issue of sexual education, I believe we should teach them all legal options. We should teach teenagers to be abstinent when sexual acts are illegal, and we should teach them to use protection properly when sexual acts become legal under the laws of their particular state.
    As for the left vs right in the US, it's clear which side is more reasonable when one side has to use fabricated stories instead of documented facts to promote its agenda.

  319. RalfAmok

    KeithDavidson – lots of name calling and semi intelligent ramblings.  Funny thing is, this article is not real, never was.  It's called – fact checking, but I guess that's something that someone of your… let's say "kind" wouldn't grasp.  Here's a thing Mr. Davidson.  I think Obama's a joke, but that's just the latest fumble of the US "democratic" system.  All of the presidents since the end of the second war have ruined this system.  Anyone blaming a single individual or the present congress for what's transpiring at the moment, can't see very far past their own nose.  Another problem with this "brilliant teacher" however fake he is – there's a distinct difference between communism and socialism.  Believe me, I was "lucky" enough to experience both in my youth and have also lived stateside for two decades.  I can tell you that the right wing rhetoric resembles a communist one nearly to the T. You wouldn't know that however, how could you.  As per your education comment… the US has been far behind most countries for decades this has about as much to do with Obama as communism.  What people like you should do, is read a bit of history books not just shiny covered propaganda nonsense but the likes of Hannity and Coulter.  What you should do, is travel a bit, go abroad, visit the old continent.  I now live under social democracy and guess what, the country's not bankrupt, we get free uni education, free healthcare and 30 paid vacation days not to mention paid maternity and paternity leave… on top of many other things covered by our 24% income tax.  Something that the rest of the world is enjoying yet the most industrious nation on this planet refuses to provide to its citizens.  It's time to wake up Mr. Davidson, this is not a left or right war, this is a war against you, waged by the corporate greed and sponsored by both parties and while you waste your time arguing on their behalf and spreading their nonsense online to some more gullible fools, these guys are drinking a 60 year old Scotch together, laughing at your ignorance.  oh… and by the way… if socialism is such a bad thing, why don't we rid of free primary, secondary and high school education?  It's 100% socialism… it must be bad.

  320. KeithDavidson

    slowhoa I think the translator had a little difficulty with your comments, but I get the basic idea of what you're saying and I totally agree. I do not know why people in the West are so in love with the idea of socialism/communism. It boggles the mind.

  321. KeithDavidson

    payingattention Sounds like you're another liberal who is so hypersensitive that everything in the universe offends you. Gay much?

  322. KeithDavidson

    smithkey08KeithDavidson ignorant Obamite. Pulling responses out of your hairless ass just because someone DOES provide easily verifiable facts, which you want others to do for you and refuse to do yourself. That's why when the SHTF you'll be one of the first to drop because you have a deliberate desire to stay stupid and depend on others to think for you. And thanks for proving it by responding exactly as I said you would. Meathead!

  323. TrevorJon

    You have obviously never made $25,000 a year. No one making that is attempting to live in $200,000 homes or drive beamers. They are merely trying to survive on whatever cheapest product is available to them. Unfortunately with an income so low, products literally do not exist at a price point they can afford. They don't need to be told that they are shopping at stores that are too good for them (further classifying needlessly). Rather than teaching them how to be more thrifty (to a level off nonexistent efficiency) and telling them they need to learn to live with what they have, maybe they could just be paid wages on which survival is actually POSSIBLE! Maybe the answer isn't "be more frugal", maybe it's "hey thanks for working such long and hard hours for me this week, here's enough money to actually feed your family for a change!" ……… You're right @jeffwalters1, it's probably because he/she is lazy, and not because the system is so unbelievably skewed in the favor of the elite that this horrible downward spiraling scenario is literally the best this individual has to hope for.
    The point being made that you missed is that if I am born a "trust fund baby" (not necessarily regarding trust funds, only using the term to identify individuals that didn't cunningly and fervently use the capitalistic system to acquire his/her own funds) to parents that are highly educated and have always been wealthy, I don't have to do ANYTHING and my life is completely set for success. From day one with cliche silver spoon in mouth, my hand will be figuratively held and guided through school, social gatherings and business meetings. The level of my effort or will to succeed are non factors. Regardless of the trouble I get into with school or the law; no matter what drug or alcohol problems my affluence may have led me to acquire, nothing lessens my likelihood of succeeding. I will graduate from a university. I will be introduced to many powerful businessman and politicians. And I will be ushered into my cushy six figure salary job with full benefits at the ripe old age of 23.
    So which seems more relevant, teaching the poor and suffering that they are living too well for their means and need tone it down a bit, or making the opportunities for success for everyone actually equal???????????? (Or at least pretend that we are aware that the vast majority HAVE NO CHANCE!)
    The mere existence of government subsidy programs proves that the minimum wage in this country is obscenely low. The incentive to work comes from receiving an income worth working for.

  324. KeithDavidson

    CantSufferFools You do realize that you entirely missed the point, right? Let me guess; you meant to do that, huh? The point was the educational system focusing on sex education instead of American history or some of the other more important subjects is why we have kids having kids. Secondly, it takes about two seconds to figure out the whole reason for having sex is because it feels good, therefore it stands to reason that it takes even less time than that to figure out that it feels better without a condom than it does with one. "recommended that I use one if I do have sex" meaning you are a victim of the liberal agenda to have little children knowledgeable about sex. The fact that you cannot see what's wrong with that whole idea is very telling about you. Libtard and ass-wipe won't send me to hell, rejecting God's plan for salvation would do that quite effectively. And besides I never claimed to be Billy freaking Graham, now did I? And since you're all for the liberal philosophy on life you're probably the last person on Earth who should go around lecturing people on what is and what isn't the Christian way. Nor should you lecture me on proper punctuation or grammar. Good grief, you dope! Just read your own comments!! LOL!!!

  325. KeithDavidson

    RalfAmok Well, semi-intelligent beats out delusional any day. Remember the part where I said, "you can't deny the pure logic of the experiment, even if the article is allegorical"? Remember that? No you don't, do you? That was an acknowledgement that the experiment may never have happened, but that it is undeniably true that people who know their hard work will be rewarded by tyrannical government officials taking the fruits of their labor away and giving it to others will soon the inclination to work, creating the problem that socialists AND communists have been faced with for generations. It's amazing how much you think you know about me. Like for example you completely invented in your otherwise empty skull that I attached the current condition of the education system to one person and/or the current Congress. You can't point out where I said that, because I didn't. You also assume you know from what media sources I get information; Hannity, Coulter. Please. Amazing how much you seem to entertain yourself with the things you make up in your head, and yet you have the gall to say something so ironically befitting of yourself, about thinking past one's own nose….really? Comical to say the least. Also, I do know there is a difference between socialism and communism. You invented the idea that I don't know that. The point, which you so blindly went right past was that none of those philosophies on society or economics is good, not for America, not for any country. I could go on to just about everything you said, showing how incredibly detached from reality you are, but you get the point. I will say that out of all these idiots I've been dealing with, you are by far the most delusional. You really think you can compete in the market place of ideas, when all your ideas are fabricated in your head. You've been indoctrinated and you don't even know it. Sad, really. Oh by the way, thanks for proving my point about how socialism sucks: You said, "I think Obama's a joke, but that's just the latest fumble of the US "democratic" system.  Here's the thing, Sparky. You ready to learn how to run with the big dogs? Here it comes. The fact that this "fumble" you speak of was socialism, which has been perpetrated on the American people by a not-so-democratic party made up of lying liberals, which is another word for socialists, is proof socialism doesn't work. You're right, Obama is a joke, and he's a socialist. Coincidence? Not hardly. Greetings from the greatest country that has ever existed on the face of the planet, even though people who think like you want to destroy it, it's still great, for the time being. USA!!! USA!!! USA!!!

  326. FarmerTom

    Such nonsense. Anyone's Spidey Sense should have been tingling when you see that the school isn't named, the alleged professor isn't named… But yes, utter fabrication, and of course, not believable.

  327. SmaugTheTerrible

    Schplatt SmaugTheTerrible ShawnSuiters You managed to look right at my words and miss my meaning entirely. No team thrives on superstars doing work and other people slacking off. For a team to thrive, everyone has to play their part and only then can there be victory. In basketball, you have to pass the ball at least once before your team can score. The economy is set up so that you never have to pass the ball and all, and oh what a failure that iteration is turning out to be.

  328. SmaugTheTerrible

    KeithDavidson hanchueh  ", you can't deny the pure logic of the experiment,"
    …Well, I happen to be pretty good at logic, despite the fact that this is a fictitious account (which means they had the latitude to make their story actually logical and chose not to in order to appeal to the lowest common denominator), so I'll explain some of the logic flaws inherent in this story. 

    Affirming a disjunct – concluding the capitalism must be failure-proof because stalinism/ socialism has failed before.

    Argument from ignorance – by default because the environment does not simulate an economic environment, unlike the experiments game theorists set up  which do. 

    Argument from repetition – because beating the "commie' horse is a meme that's been alive longer than some of the people speaking on this forum currently. 

    Begging the question – not only because this is fictitious, and therefore the story is designed around the conclusion, but also because if this were a real experiment, you would have to deign to denigrate socialism from the onset of it in order to come up with an experiment that demonstrates that capitalism is good and socialism is bad. It's crude too, but that's not a fallacy.

    Equivocation – because what the story describes isn't socialism and what most people call communism isn't communism by theory.. in much the same way that America is a federal republic (Look it up before you comment), not a representative democracy and certainly not a straight democracy or republic. 

    Circular reasoning – by way of the title

    cum hoc ergo propter hoc – regarding the failures of socialism in world history. 

    Suppressed correlative – regarding the future of socialism in world history. 

    Ecological fallacy – regarding socialism in world history, again.

    Fallacy of composition – regarding socialism in world history, Again.

    False dilemma – regarding socialism "versus" capitalism.

    False attribution – the premise of this story is a fabrication.

    Historian's fallacy – by default in analyzing outcomes of socialism and judging the system's implementation in the future based upon results obtained at a time when no historical information was available. In other words, the messed up and now someone can do it better. 

    Homunculus fallacy -This entire story is in fact the homunculus fallacy. 

    Incomplete comparison – the experiment did not attempt to recreate capitalism, even in this bastardized environment. 

    Inconsistent comparison – the experiment design was flawed in reflectign socialism (especially where the means of production and the motivations of individuals are concerned). 

    Moral high ground – because for some reason people think it's not only okay, but the right thing to do, to write fictitious accounts about an improperly conducted experiment regarding well documented economic theory and make it an emotional issue. 

    Kettle logic – Again, this story. Also, many of the comments that follow ins upport of it. 

    Ludic fallacy – in analysis of previous iterations fo socialism and current iterations of capitalism. 

    Nirvana fallacy – because something not working once is a great reason to never try it again (when in fact we have a government in place that is a second attempt of sorts. If you haven't, please read Machiavelli). 

    Proving too much – Again, let's see the story made to reflect an example of a capitalist system and see whether the outcomes are equally absurd (with one student in the 30 holding an absurd amount of the possible grade points and the rest failing, in all likelihood).

    Psychologist's fallcay – Saying that socialism doesn't work because this fictitious and badly designed experiment didn't work is assuming an objective view of the reasoning behind the failure, which wouldn't have been available through observation alone (especially in an environment with no marketplace). 

    Red herring – This entire story is basically this too. 

    Okay, I'm getting tired. I'm just going to shotgun the rest of these fallacies and call it a morning. 

    Regression, retrospective determinism, false analogy, cherry picking, hasty generalization, misleading vivdness, thought-terminating cliche, association fallacy, appeal to emotion, appeal to tradition, genetic fallacy, strawman, texas sharpshooter (just about 1000% of this), and slippery slope. 

    I hope this has been educational for you. 

    By the way, in case you missed it, You're the lowest common denominator.

  329. SmaugTheTerrible

    JeffWalters1 SmaugTheTerrible joeroppolo You didn't actually meet my objection there. You just handwaved the secondary impacts of the boom-bust cycle (little guys getting wiped out of the market and big guys making bank because they have enough free capital to hedge their bets in a major way and direct market access so they can pull out the losing horse quickly and cheaply) so that you could essentially say "trickledown economics". 

    Also, slow down there before you hurt yourself. You just said that to have income you either have ot be entrepreneur (which I've been) or work for someone wealthy. That entirely, and incorrectly, writes off all entrepreneurs, like myself, who were not wealthy but still had employees and wrote them checks. False alternatives fallacy AND strawman, but it's cool though. The internet, right? lol.

  330. RalfAmok

    KeithDavidson – hardly trying to destroy anything.  Your comment however – case in point.  I do like however how you skipped the bit about schooling system being social.  In any case, as I've mentioned before, I've had the opportunity to grow up in three different places under three different political systems and know it from the inside.  I've done quite a bit of traveling and also own my own business, never actually part took in the social system or wanted to utilize the option of social assistance so I'm far from liberal or socialist.  You can sit here and be an online genius with a huge mouth and an ego only matched by the size of your fat.  [Funny that you should be talking about sex and people having it]  See, anyone and everyone can be a douche nozzle online, but it takes a special kind of asshole to really stand out in this geriatric race for net supremacy.  You can try and back paddle as much as you want, scream USA till your made in China flag tatters to bits, that will not change the fact, that in reality, you're just a king of this here board and your victory is marked with people such as myself, too terrified by the sheer size of your ignorance… again, only outgrown by your belly.  Have you ever been outside of your living room or your county?

  331. SmaugTheTerrible

    JeffWalters1 kvec If you have a mensa level IQ, it entirely astounds me that you would have no understanding of the concept that a system can be implemented incorrectly (which would result in historical failure, consistent with what you're describing), that a system may have been impossible to implement correctly due to technological limitations (you can't comment on the inefficiency of a government in 1500 AD when we have additional technologies available to us today that make communications instantaneous and transportation of goods both quick and efficient), and that practical implementation of a system can be improved by using data of previous failures (this is the premise behind just about all science). 
    If we judged the history of medicine by the standards your'e judging socialism with, we should have concluded that "modern medicine", which suffered heavily from iatrogenics all the way through the last century, should never have made it out of the dark ages in europe and that traditional folk medicine is superior. Improvement using information from failures on systems that may have been incorrectly implemented is the back bone of scientific development. It's why you and I are talking on a computer right now. I'm not sure how this escaped your 138 IQ.

  332. ErikGruber

    JeffWalters1 kvec You have an IQ of 138? Yet you think that all Muslims are one step away from being terrorists? Where did you have your IQ tested? And socialism is in practice in many successful nation RIGHT NOW.

  333. RalfAmok

    ErikGruber – that's the main problem.  Most people are so brainwashed that they don't realize the difference between communism and socialism. On top of it, they don't even realize that they've been educated THANKS to a socialist system which offers free primary, secondary and high school education.  When it comes to Americans especially – their neighbors up north – socialist country with an amazing social system and many great benefits.  The greatest achievement of an oppressive regime is convincing its victims to become tools of their own oppression.

  334. RalfAmok

    JeffWalters1 ehmm… no. Half of EU is social democracy.  Most developed countries in the world are in large percent socialist.  Most of those countries offer social services to their citizens that US citizens can only dream about.  This is not some libtard propaganda, it's a fact.  What people stateside are told about socialism and about what it's like to live in a country with high social standards is nothing but a pack of lies.

  335. RalfAmok

    JeffWalters1 Norway, Sweden, Swiss, Holland, Poland, France, Germany… should I continue?  Failures?  I'd love for my friends stateside to experience such failures.

  336. ChristopherKoda

    TrevorJonIn all your rantings and ravings you somehow failed to recognize the real facts of life.  A lot of those poor earning folks you speak of today are there because they dropped out of High School and decided to go make babies.  They learned this behavior from their parent/s because mommy and daddy did the same thing they dropped out of High School and found out hey the government will provide so I can just keep making babies.  We all started out in Kindergarten and progressed from their some of us kept pushing and working and striving to succeed.  Others just wuit and thought welfare was easier.

  337. slappykh

    This is only analogous if our government Collected 100 percent of everyones income and redistributed it equally to everyone. This says nothing about Obama's actual policies, and is simply an example of the"poisoning the well" logical fallacy.

  338. JamesJones6

    we all know socialism doesn't work but I would be pissed if the grades were real and if the professor held my grades hostage to prove a fucking point. I would have dropped his class like it was hot.

  339. FarmerTom

    JamesJones6 Okay, calm down. The story is bogus. Never happened. Made up. Lies. Fabrication. See below. Check Snopes.

  340. karateman39

    Nice story. To bad it's a complete fabrication. No proffesor name, no college name, no nothing. If this wre true in this day and age it would show p on al sorts of sites. If I remember right, I've seeen this story over 6 years ago.

  341. newsninja2012

    For everyone that has joined into to this scenario, thanks for visiting and even reading it. Many of you are like-minded and have read through the story and know that it's true. If this was enacted on a classroom this would be the outcome. 

    What I am reading now is liberals, progressives or those that dismiss the STORY because it's a scenario and not real. They can't cope with the real truth that you can't move poor people into prosperity by legislation from Washington, DC.  Government doesn't have the authority to take from Citizen A and give to Citizen B to make things even. 

    Its a shame that more people aren't waking up to this. 

    Thanks again for sharing this and keep doing so to people that can think clearly and understand that SOCIALISM DOESN'T WORK.

  342. forgottenrevenant


  343. Reverend Draco

    An unselfish "what's mine is mine" attitude is what forged the US into what was once the greatest country on earth. It's the same unselfish attitude involved when, as a child, one is taught not to take things that aren't theirs, and to ask before using someone else's stuff. It's called Good Manners, and it would behoove you (and a horrifyingly-large number of other people) to learn some.
    Sorry to have to burst your bubble, Sparkles (oh, wait, I LOVE bursting bubbles!) – theft is not now, nor has it ever been, an appropriate method of transferring ownership. . . whether the criminal has a badge or wears a suit or has a fancy title or calls himself a Crip. Empathy is a voluntary action – a virtue, as it were. Theft, on the other hand, cannot be called a virtue no matter how you twist and distort the actual meaning of the word.

  344. Reverend Draco

    It probably should amaze me that so many people are militantly incapable of comprehending allegory and parable – but it doesn't – I've watched the low quality of schools when I was young, race to the sewer in the years since.
    As of last year, 70% of all HS graduates are illiterate – 80% are innumerate (according to numbers released by the CSU/UC systems). . . a far cry from the days (before "public schools) when the US enjoyed a nearly-universal literacy of over 90%.

    "No people will tamely surrender their Liberties, nor can any be easily subdued, when knowledge is diffused and Virtue is preserved. On the Contrary, when People are universally ignorant, and debauched in their Manners, they will sink under their own weight without the Aid of foreign Invaders." ~ Samuel Adams

    Better hope that there's enough room in the lifeboats. . .

  345. ErikGruber

    newsninja2012 Ignoring the fact that it's fabrication and you just take it as a parable, it's still wrong because it's not describing socialism. So much for your documented facts.

  346. ErikGruber

    Reverend Draco "70% of all High School Graduates are illiterate" I'd really loveeee to know where you pulled that insanely inaccurate stat from.

  347. SmaugTheTerrible

    newsninja2012 Your confidence seems very high. Replicate the experiment if you want anyone to believe you.

  348. BobYoung1

    Reverend Draco our schools are now dumbing down the population, as required by the Obama regime. Keep the population stupid and dependent.

  349. kvec

    Reverend Draco kvec TomAdkins See, I would consider the top 10% of the US owning 80% of the wealth theft, which I agree with you is not a virtue. I'm all for hard working people being rewarded for their effort, but if you can't see how obscenely skewed our economic system is towards those who already have literally unspendable amounts of money, you must be blind.

  350. ErikGruber

    BobYoung1 Reverend Draco Rightt, certainly "No Child left behind" had no affect on our schools…

  351. BobYoung1

    ErikGruberBobYoung1FarmerTom do you really need to know bro? One university starts with Cor and the other with an H

  352. SmaugTheTerrible

    Reverend DracokvecTomAdkins "It's the same unselfish attitude involved when, as a child, one is taught not to take things that aren't theirs, and to ask before using someone else's stuff."
    Yes, not to take other people's property. Of course, it was a different attitude that taught that it was okay for there to exist community property (like shared toys and books at school) and that appropriating these community resources for selfish personal gain (a useless accumulation of resources meant to be shared) was just as wrong as taking another individual's toys. However, your abstraction leaves no room for in between "someone else's stuff" and "my stuff", which is horrifically incorrect.
    "theft is not now, nor has it ever been, an appropriate method of transferring ownership."
    ….Lol…. what? This country is literally built on stolen land. Land that was stolen through the spread of pestilence, the use of advanced weaponry, and making deals regarding personal ownership with aborigines that only had concepts of communal ownership (also known as stealing community property). Does the word "Imperialism" not exist in your lexicon?
    "Empathy is a voluntary action – a virtue, as it were."
    Empathy is an involuntary part of most of our neural circuitry. It operates using mirror neurons. Essentially, if you have a fully functioning brain, you have no choice but to feel what other people feel (obvious outliers in this are people on the autism spectrum, sociopaths and people with other more common less severe mental illnesses like bipolarism, ocd, and any other illness that may deprioritize empathy in favor of compulsion or selfish behavior).
    "Theft, on the other hand, cannot be called a virtue no matter how you twist and distort the actual meaning of the word."
    How true. How resources can be "owned" is beyond me, seeing as how the claims to ownership are rooted only in "I was here first, so this plot of land and everything on it, under it, and above it for several miles, belongs to me. ME, ME, ME." And you claim that it's unselfish. lol. That's a good one.

  353. SmaugTheTerrible

    Reverend Draco Economics is a science. I wouldn't accept allegories or parables in a chemistry textbook if they obscured or bastardized the correct definitions of terms or defining of phenomena and no one should accept it here either. If you want to get into a polarized discussion, that's fine. Just don't pretend you have an ironclad premise to work from in defending your case.

  354. RandySeck

    LOL. Obama is a Right leaning authoritarian crooked capitalist if we ever had one in office. Also you are referring TO COMMUNISM NOT SOCIALISM YOU MORONS!!!! STOP PERPETUATING THIS MISINFORMATION ABOUT OUR PRESIDENT AND ABOUT ECONOMIC AND GOVERNMENT ORGANIZATIONS.

  355. Brand3

    Who exactly is jealous and what are they jealous of? Of others' money? If it's these poor jealous people making the decisions then I agree with you. But aren't the people making legislative decisions well-off? In which case sympathy would be the human emotion driving socialism.

  356. ErikGruber

    BobYoung1 ErikGruber FarmerTom Yeah I'm just curious, what are your honorifics from those places?

  357. SpencerHershberger

    The result ARE NOT TRUE because there ARE NO RESULTS.
    You cant present results as fact because the experiment NEVER HAPPENED.

  358. nownewstrue

    No problem. Companies then have to pay a living wage so that employees do not have to ask for government handouts. If the company's success is because of not paying taxes plus the government supporting it's workers then how is capitalism working? If companies are dispersing the burden of paying employees to the government via taxpayers dollars for food stamps/housing/etc then that is how is that capitalism?

  359. marcohern

    Allright, enougth with this stupid crap! THIS IS NOT A PROPPER EXAMPLE OF SICIALISM, I DONT KNOW WHAT THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF, BUT IT IS NOT SOCIALISM! The idea of socialism is giving everyone an education, not to average their grades, what the hell is that? Why would anyone do that?

  360. BobYoung1

    ErikGruberBobYoung1FarmerTom Now that Ive answered your question, so which community college were you kicked out of?

  361. ErikGruber

    BobYoung1 ErikGruber FarmerTom I graduated from Temple University with honors, but you seemed to have skipped my last question…

  362. BobYoung1

    ErikGruberBobYoung1FarmerTom Temple is a wannabe Ivy university. Sorry you wasted your time there. BTW, your boat house on the Schuylkill is looking shabby, much like your alma matter.

  363. ErikGruber

    BobYoung1 ErikGruber FarmerTom I don't think Temple has every pretended to be ivy league, besides Ivy leagues is closed up, you can only get in it if you're as old as the other IVY league schools. But you still haven't answer my question. What honorifics did you graduate with?

  364. BobYoung1

    ErikGruberBobYoung1FarmerTom Why is knowing my "honorifics" so important to you?  I only needed to know you went to an inferior 3rd tier university.

  365. ErikGruber

    BobYoung1 ErikGruber FarmerTom Maybe 3rd tier in football, but affordable. I want to know your honorifics because I know you're full of it haha. You can't even tell my your focuses in whatever degrees you supposedly got. It's the classic school yard, "I know but I'm not telling you." You just revert back to insulting my school, which is really irrelevant to me, they offered me the best deal for the education I needed and it's working for me now.

  366. smith204

    nownewstrue Minumum wage is considered based on what it takes to pay for a bedroom for your self and or your partner and two children(3..4….5 kids……well the 2nd one was the sign when ya work for min wage to wrap that ….up) in the same room, and apt, not a house. Food, not eating out though. Instead cooking financially efficient meals for your family for dollars a day.(healthier too)No cable or internet, its why a 100 dollar antenna gets ya 20-100 channels for free.  No ipads, or cell plan.  no car payment(beater)no lattes(COFFEE AT HOME)  Pay as you go for safety if ya want.  40 hours s week at McDonalds flipping burgers should not afford a great life for anyone in this country unless your 20 single and living at your parents.  So companies shouldn't have to pay more then 9 or 10 an hour for something a one million dollar machine can do, that would last longer then the worker most likely.(automated mcdonalds—look it up)   Sorry for the rant..kind of…..  Cant stand people that say minimum wage is not enough to do this life thing in america.  I see many FAMILIES in my area lose there job and make that shit work.  They have to stop playing keep up with the jones, and lose the materialistic view on life, that society so eagerly implants in nearly everyone.  Many people see it like you, honestly in my opinion, its fine, I signed up to fight for that right of yours. Move to Canada, or Sweden.  Quit thinking this country should change the founding principle in which; ANY citizen with a deep passion, that comes from the heart and soul, and he or she pursued(s) in a fashion that benefits the greater good of society in way that changes the quality of life(bill gates, steve jobs, industious individuals in the 1800's buying oil rights for pennies and being called fools. Then supplying Henry Ford the fuel for his ingenious.) These people and people the same, even mildly, deserve a better life that people that work at job that supplies little value to the world…….sorry peeps its AMERICA. PuRsUiT oF PrOsPeRITy…..its why YOUR ANCESTORS CAME HERE CLOWNS!!!!

  367. BobYoung1

    ErikGruberBobYoung1FarmerTom seriously dude. why do I need to justify myself to a guy named goober.

  368. hanchueh

    ErikGruber Reverend Draco I think even more outrageous was his claim that before public schools the US had a literacy of 90%.

  369. hanchueh

    smithkey08 rwgonzalez01 hanchueh TomAdkins Good points, but my real point was:
    Social, single-payer healthcare system leads to high standards of living! HK utilizes a system where everyone can use the public system for free (presumably funded by taxes). The public system needs to be good enough to take care of everyone but also affordable enough to not bankrupt the country.
    At the same time, HK also has a private system where people can choose to pay more (aka private health insurance in the US) to get higher quality care to avoid long lines.
    It's a win-win system. Everyone can get free healthcare to manage everyday health problems. People who have higher health risks or want to pay extra also has private options to get what they need or want. This is what the US should have, a social healthcare system with extra private options available. Instead, we just have the private options which artificially inflates healthcare bills every year. Healthcare cost at the current rate inflates much faster than salary raises and inflation. It's not sustainable. Ultimately we will bankrupt the whole country with hospital bills.

  370. hanchueh

    KeithBarber1 Actually in one version they named a college in Texas. Obviously, this never happened in that college. Still a phony story.

  371. hanchueh

    newsninja2012 FarmerTom We mean the "If you like your healthcare plan you can keep it (unless the insurance companies decide to screw you over like they always do) Barack Obama

  372. hanchueh

    newsninja2012 The results aren't true if the scenario is made up. That's the same as saying whoever you picked in Fantasy Football is the real champion and not the actual team that won the final game. You're the one that needs to wake up.

  373. hanchueh

    ErikGruber BobYoung1 FarmerTom Well according to his FB page, he really does have a degree from Cornell and is now in NYU Business school.

  374. spitefulspear91919

    marcohernif you take the socialism model and apply it to how grades for a class work…..the whole class eventually fails. if you understand this, great. if you dont, you probably ne