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THIS TEACHER ROCKS! Entire Class Fails when Obama’s Socialism Experiment Fails

Wayne Dupree
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Wayne Dupree

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My name is Wayne Dupree or as most of you know me by, Newsninja2012. I am and have been committed to exposing the Democrats in a way that has been frowned upon by some conservatives and cheered by many more.
Wayne Dupree
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An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama’s socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The professor then said, “OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama’s plan”.. All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A…. (substituting grades for dollars – something closer to home and more readily understood by all).

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.

The second test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.  As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.

To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed. Could not be any simpler than that. (Please pass this on) These are possibly the 5 best sentences you’ll ever read and all applicable to this experiment:

  1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.
  2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
  3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
  4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!.
  5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.

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  1. thiswasafakepost

    Hilarious that you claim you are assassinating liberal lies with documented fact when you are posting articles you would have known were fake if you spent 3 minutes researching them.


    For the moral of the story, I give you an A+. Since this unsubstantiated story has been around economics for years, and I give you a D. For using famous quotes without attribution, you FAIL.

  3. slowhoa

    Karl Marx's dangerous theory born the  Socialism, that has to be thrown into the thrash bin,  not recycle bin. The communist movement killed more than 100 million people around the world since Lenin applies the socialism in Russia by the so-called" revolution on October 1917". Karl Marx, a dishonest, who received totally support income from Engels, a wealthy family in England, but Marx wrote the books condemned the" capitalism" and wanted to abolish all. How do you think someone receives your help, but they want to harm you?. Karl Marx wrong theory, predicted about the changing the world into socialism, it is the crazy ideology, couldn't accept into the human society, including his time, so Marx's funeral just had 8 people attended at Hyde in London, mostly family member plus Engels.
    Unfortunately, in the Western countries are still having the innocent scholars, academics, intellectuals, even though the national leaders, who have the nightmare about socialism, but they think its is good shape for society. The economic recession today that couldn't help the" working class" stand up then create" revolution" as Lenin, Mao Tse Tung, Ho Chi Minh, Kim Il Sung, Fidel Castro…did. Moreover, the low and uneducated people couldn't mange the national economy as Karl Marx promoted as the" human peak", but  at Russia, China, Vietnam, North Korea…they bad people named revolutionist have been granting the" license to kill".
    Nowadays, when the economy being crisis, the government collapsed, then people elect the other cabinet as Greece.
    In US, the top capitalist pattern, so the socialism to be allergy when someone else wants to impose the deadly social modern into the number one democratic country.
    While Russia, Eastern Europe communist Bloc abolished the socialism, but US president Barack Obama wants to apply into the US people…The socialism has no way to exit, let's see the all communist country, people would know the freedom being destroyed by the only government those control by communist party, a super gang and dishonest
    Hoa Minh Truong. A communist expert.
    ( author of 3 books: the dark journey, good evening Vietnam & from laborer to author)

  4. SalCottone

    Why are we even talking socialism, in this country in 2014, Is this why corperate l'america work hand and hand wit The peoples Republic of China, something happen while the masses slept, and consume thier thoughts and energy about BS like gun controll , Obamacareless and sales at Walmart?

  5. stopthatjunk

    the point still is well shown regardless of the stories distribution. Thanks for the wakeup and hope the criticism wakes up the thrashers.

  6. NotListeningToTheBS

    While the story may be fake, the lesson is very real.  I have seen in on a small scale. 
    I have seen this in community gardens and other socialist enterprises that have been started locally by, guess who?  Teachers.  Yes, the teachers that scramble children's brains with tripe being force fed by order of the state.  
    My true story is this:  I had a new renter move in across the street.  A husband and wife, educators, democrat voters and closet socialists.  They saw the shape of my garden (beautiful) and asked if I would participate in their "community garden" in a plot of land where the city allow them to grow foods. I declined for I know human nature.  They enlisted the help of many people.  In the beginning there was much help, preparing the property, soil, irrigation, etc. and the planting.  As time wore on and the work became more tedious and difficult, fewer people showed up to help and even fewer at harvest time but, all those that initially helped and did little else throughout the season wanted their "fair share" but wanted someone else to harvest it.  The educators took what they could eat, donated some and left the rest to rot on the vine because they were sick of doing all the work and people demanding more.
    Sound familiar?  Doubt me?  Try it yourself.

  7. benjipants

    Amer_Infidel thiswasafakepost Hm…Amer_Infidel, the person trying to make the 'point' to begin with has the burden of proving the point yes? I could make up a story about aliens being behind the assassination of JFK and then say "You have no proof that they weren't." That doesn't mean I win the argument.
    Also, just FYI, whomever wrote this story misunderstands the difference between socialism and communism. That's a point that can be settled with a dictionary.

  8. CynthiaSpeaks

    NotListeningToTheBS Then there are people like me whose "community organizing friend" invited me to participate in her community garden. This was a friends only garden on and on her property. 

    I helped with the initial planting and set up, but then lost interest and didn't help with weeding, pruning or watering. When it came time to harvest, she told me to help myself to whatever was there. My exact words to her were, "No thank you. I made a commitment to help with the garden and I didn't follow through. So I am not comfortable with taking what I didn't earn." She had to force me to take some of it home before it went to rot and frankly I felt guilty about it. I didn't earn it. 


  9. JoeCushing

    CynthiaSpeaks NotListeningToTheBS People often give away food from their gardens because gardens produce what they are going to produce and not what people are going to eat.  This is why she insisted that you take some.  You probably would have felt less guilty taking it if you had no roll in the garden at all.  One time, my parents were on vacation.  I harvested their cucumbers and gave them to 5 neighbors

  10. davidlandau

    Amer_Infidel thiswasafakepost   You are entitled to your own beliefs, this is America. You are not, however, entitled to your own facts.  The piece is titled THIS TEACHER ROCKS! and there is picture of a teacher, and the story concerns a class. There is no TEACHER, no CLASS… because this did not happen.  You can't complain about liberal media distortion and then support a story presented as true (On a site that claims "Assassinating Liberal Lies with Documented Facts" no less.) that is clearly false.

  11. davidlandau

    stopthatjunk It makes a GREAT point.  But do not present as something that actually happened when it is clearly a parable.   Do not have a site that claims to "Assassinate Liberal Lies With Documented Facts" and post a story that is not true.

  12. TomGordon1

    StephenZeigler mis-attribution. Lincoln didn't say that, -William J. H. Boetcker – (1873 – 1962) did. But it's a great quote nonetheless!

  13. TomGordon1

    StephenZeiglerskeeter799mis-attribution. Lincoln didn't say that, -William J. H. Boetcker – (1873 – 1962) did. But it's a great quote nonetheless!

  14. CynthiaSpeaks

    JoeCushing CynthiaSpeaks NotListeningToTheBS Thank you for the Kindergarten level education on garden production. it was unnecessary.

  15. ElizabethCohen

    davidlandau stopthatjunk I have only one word – RUSSIA, that sounds about right doesn't it.

  16. AmandaMathieson

    Even if this story was not fake, it is a massive oversimplification of real society. Over-simplified models are rarely accurate, you can see it in ecological models all the time.
    Lets look at a real social experiment: a pilot project in Namibia where an entire village were given a universal basic income wether they worked or not and anything they earned on top of that was extra. There was a reduction in child malnutrition and increased school attendance. There was also an increase in economic activity. Participants became more productive not less.

    People are not inherently lazy. They are demotivated, frustrated and restricted by a society that overvalues competition and has dire consequences for those that don't succeed.

    There's nothing wrong with having an incentive-based social system as long as it has a safety net that prevents people falling into poverty. Everyone has a right to a dignified existence.

  17. RonnieMParente

    The real message here is how people fail when this system is in place. This is no different than any other system that can be or is in place now. Humans will in the end ruin it. We will do our best to get as much of anything we find precious for as little actual work we can.Greed is our underlining flaw and instead of trying to trick this behavior so that everyone is productive in society (have yet to ever truly work) we should try to overcome this behavior.

  18. JohnMiguel

    The real message here is that they can take dumps on people on welfare, but that's not even a tenth of the welfare that was paid out in corporate bailouts, and the rich are outsourcing jobs and doing whatever they can to get rid of as many as possible.  He should of used his lesson plan on teaching them what happened with the banks.  Ignorant asshole.

  19. BeProudAmerica

    JohnMiguel Wow, are you that out of touch.  How ignorant can you be???  Yes, that would be another lesson on the corporate bailouts that DEMOCRAT congresses passed without support of Republcans.    But that is a whole different issue, if you can't see the lesson in this, then sir you need to pull your head out of the sand and open your eyes for a moment.

  20. ErikGruber

    This guy is clearly the worst economics teacher ever since he doesn't know the basic difference between socialism and communism. What he is describing is communism, not socialism.

  21. BrianPickell

    ErikGruber There is not much difference between socialism and communism. Once the Liberals figure that out this country would be a much better place.

  22. BrianPickell

    AmandaMathieson So are you saying you would still work your ass off for the exact same wage as someone who doesn't work at all?

  23. ErikGruber

    BrianPickell ErikGruber That's like saying there's not much difference between Canada and North Korea. There is an ENORMOUS difference. One is about how much service the government provides (socialism) and one is about everyone making the same amount of money. Socialism has prospered in many nations and communism has failed in all instances. There is a huge difference.

  24. ErikGruber

    BrianPickell For those who are obviously unclear, here is a very basic explanation of the difference: Socialism is government provided services (i.e. the snow plow that just drove past my house, the firetruck that aided saving lives in my town or the police officers that try to keep the peace) Communism is when the government declares that everyone will have the same amount of assets/income basically removing any reward system, resulting in the failure demonstrated in this analogy. Conservatives use these word interchangeable out of ignorance or to attached a larger negative connotation with it. They are only similar in that they end in "ism."

  25. ShannonMCarithers

    ErikGruber BrianPickell You forgot to add quite a few things to your socialism examples. Like welfare, Medicare, Social Security, section eight housing, etc.  Those things will be paid for by those that work hard for their money and have some of it taken away and given to someone else that has often not worked for any of it.  In many cases people have realized that they make more being on welfare than they would earn if they worked because in many cases they lack proper training and education.  Another social program is education benefits. They're offered at tax payer expense but far too few take advantage of that because through generations of laziness people have not cared to better themselves when they can be supported and not have to work for it.

  26. MicheleHenson

    ErikGruber Eric it's pretty clear that you liberals don't know the difference either! I don't know how you younger ones got so far astray to realities but 
    There is A REASON the American experiment was conceived, it's because thousands if years of failed socialist/Marxist/communist attempts have failed.
    Because of YOU morons – the message is lost in America already!!!

  27. MicheleHenson

    ErikGruber BrianPickell wrong!
    Socialism is owning part of the private sector; eliminating competition.
    Communism is government owning all of that sector.
    Your a douche & should vote & eff up our Country.
    You're a waste of airspace!

  28. ErikGruber

    ShannonMCarithers ErikGruber BrianPickell Undoubtedly there will always be social programs that are taken advantage by some. Agreed, in some state people probably do make more on welfare than they do a minimum wage job, because the minimum wage is not a living wage, so why would they work to get less? That's why the minimum wage needs to be addressed.

  29. ErikGruber

    MicheleHenson ErikGruber BrianPickell Doesn't necessarily eliminate competition, for instance there are still private schools. In some cases it just gives people a more affordable option.

  30. lisanne

    RonnieMParente I agree that greed should be overcome. BY LIBERALS. When will liberals ever learn this lesson and overcome their obsessive thirst for the wealth of others?

  31. ErikGruber

    MicheleHenson ErikGruber First of all, it's Erik*, just move your eyes like half an inch and read it. I do know the difference, as I've highlighted. I said the same thing you just said in different more layman terms with examples. I'm not wrong, we have tons of infrastructure, therefore socialism, but not communism. I think it's a common issue to lump socialism in with communism/marxism, and it's absolutely false. Countries like Canada, Sweden and France thrive under "Socialist" ideals whereas North Korea and the Former Soviet Union have collapsed or are on the verge of collapse under communism. I don't see where I've been wrong, if you highlight that I'd be happy to accept that I'm a moron who shouldn't vote, but until then, I think name calling is out of line and childish.

  32. Miniar

    I find it entertaining that this obvious piece of fiction is posted without reference or documentation under a website title that claims to assassinate liberal lies with "documented facts".

  33. GrahamTuttle

    ErikGruber MicheleHenson Look at the demographic makeup of the populations of those countries you described and then compare them to the US's. It works better in those countries because a larger percentage of the EDUCATED population contributes, whereas in the US a large percentage of the population has a victim and entitlement mentality and knows that they will be taken care of. It's not PC to call them out here, which is the real problem. Have 5 kids by age 20, and there will be no consequences for your actions, just more welfare and food stamp $.

  34. ErikGruber

    GrahamTuttle ErikGruber MicheleHenson First of all, the demographics in those countries aren't as different as we'd like to think (only 6% more african descent in the US vs. Canada). But that is fair to say that what works in other countries wouldn't necessarily work here. And they have a larger educated population because it more publicly funded.

  35. AmandaMathieson

    BrianPickell AmandaMathieson  

    Perhaps you don't understand what I mean when I say universal basic income.
    Its the idea that everyone would get a basic salary, regardless of who they are and whether they work or not. This salary would be high enough to pay for basic needs like food, rent, utility bills, health care and so on. 
    Then if you want to get a job to earn more money for non-essentials and luxuries, you can do that.
    However if you are happy living from a basic income and want to perform work which doesn't earn you any money, such as art, music, charity, community work and so on, then you can do all these things and contribute really important services to society that are currently undervalued. And you can do them without worrying about needing the time or the money to do these things.
    The majority of industries have become mechanised. We have to face facts that there are fewer and fewer jobs available. The only industry left with surplus jobs is the service industry, and with supermarkets adopting do-it-yourself checkouts and restaurants adopting computerised ordering systems, soon those jobs will be gone too.
    A universal income gives people the choice. Work for someone else to earn more money. Set up your own business without risk of destitution. Or perform some other role which doesn't earn money but has other rewards, things like charity and community work, which we vitally need but assume people should do these things in their spare time.
    We don't need more people flipping burgers at McDonalds or stocking shelves in supermarkets. We need innovators, new business, inventors, artists, musicians, social works and so on. It's not that people don't want to do it. Its that they are restricted by the need to fill an (often pointless) job in order to exist in any sort of dignified level.

  36. Misha0630

    So, you are saying that this "universal income" comes from where? If one has the choice not to work and still reap the benefits of all necessities being met, who makes the money for the "universal income" pot?

  37. Misha0630

    I agree… I feel that the car industry, the real estate industry AND the banking industry should have reaped what they had sown… Nothing will get better until it all crumbles to the ground in abject failure and begin anew…

  38. Misha0630

    The problem is when social benefits benefiting ALL are undercut by benefits awarded to SOME (i.e. welfare, Medicaid, etc. – and yes, even social security). When I lose the benefits of my contribution (snow plow, police force) and those benefits are directed to someone/something else based on need, it is called equalization (that nasty "c" word you disavow – communism)

  39. MichaelAlanCavalier

    OK, I am about as conservative as you want to be…but this is absolute HOG WASH.  No professor ever did this…EVER.  It's a story…a morality tale…but NOT based in fact.

  40. KevinSpruill

    "Can you think of a reason for not sharing this on Twitter or Facebook?"Of course… because it's a lie, but since you're not committed to exposing anything, just regurgitating right wing lies – I'd expect you to do nothing other than mindlessly repost this wayne. roflmao

  41. Misha0630

    But what many fail to realize is this… If minimum wages are increased, the cost of doing business increases. If the cost of doing business increases, the cost of living increases. If the cost of living increase is proportional to the minimum wage increase, did anyone benefit at all? What I am actually interpreting from the "pro-increase" camp is that they want corporations to STOP making so much money and start paying higher wages without increasing end-product costs… Again, you are trying to equalize (communism)… Remember: we all have a choice… We are offered education, but we make our own choices on what to do with said education… I could go to work flipping burgers for $7.50 an hour or I could choose to seek a better job with better pay. If I choose to accept a job at a specific pay (whether minimum wage or $40K per year or more), I AGREE to exchange my time and energy to provide a service for an AGREED UPON amount of money. It is irresponsible of me not to do the job I promised to do in exchange for the pay they promised to give me. If I feel that my services provided have increased and my pay received did not increase, then it is MY responsibility to ask for more money and (if that request is not granted), I then have a CHOICE to make: accept it as it is, look for another job (or train for a better job) WHILE holding the same underpaid position OR quit and pout at the "unfairness" of it all. But it is STILL first and foremost a CHOICE!

  42. KevinSpruill

    MicheleHenson ErikGruber  what kind of drugs are you on? "There is A REASON the American experiment was conceived, it's because thousands if years of failed socialist/Marxist/communist attempts have failed." 
    How about a little basic history — the "american experiment" began long before socialism or communism as you poorly describe and conflate them existed. geez… 
    please educate yourself a wee bit more Michele… lol

  43. KevinSpruill

    GrahamTuttle ErikGruber MicheleHenson graham, dog whistel appeals aside… you do realize that there are more non minorities on welfare than minorities right? and that a large number of those receiving assistance these days are unemployed white collar workers? roflmao…

  44. Misha0630

    Greed is NOT the problem… (And by the way what your consider greedy is perception, not truth). COVETING (or wanting) something that SOMEONE ELSE has worked for is the problem… I do not feel Bill Gates and Microsoft or that the departed Steve Jobs and Apple are greedy, or even General Motors and Bank of America. All created a product that was conceived, developed, produced, marketed and eventually sold… And please let me remind you that it was sold to a market that LOVED their product and gobbled it up for an AGREED UPON PRICE! They were smart. Some continue to be smart. SOME businesses got STUPID when they got to the top, yes… Like Bank of America… And the financial industry with their "no doc" and high-risk loans… They took a stupid gamble and they lost big-time… But did they "put one over" on the common man? Did they make someone sign an adjustable-rate loan with a 10% balloon? No! The "poor, taken-advantage of" working man CHOSE not to read the fine print and CHOSE not to do his/her research and CHOSE not to look at worst case scenarios. So the banks gambled and lost to their own ineptitude (and SHOULD NOT have been bailed out) and the home-owners gambled and lost to THEIR own ineptitude, as well (and should not have been bailed out either with HARP or any other program)… GM… Their idiocy came in the form of ever increasing union demands.., the unions demanded (hmmm $75+ an hour for an assembly line worker, no lay-offs during slowed production and fully paid health insurance… Talk about greed), GM agreed (stupidity) and no one made contingencies for worst-case scenarios… What if the economy tanks? What if cars got so crappy and, at the same time, so expensive that no one wanted to buy them? But they agreed to everything… And both sides should have lost in the end of that battle, as well… But, with that great equalization word (communism), lets give tax dollars to bail them out… Nope they should have reaped the consequences of their actions, as well… When NO ONE has to be responsible for their own actions and EVERYONE looks to the government to "save them" guess what we have, guys? A government that has been given PERMISSION BY ITS OWN PEOPLE to make each and every decision for those people! Or… COMMUNISM in the guise of SOCIALISM.

  45. Misha0630

    I know I've commented quite a bit throughout this thread and it's not even in defense or condemnation of the original article, but please remember one thing… Our government does not MAKE money, the people (you) make money… The government does not CREATE jobs, either… When a politician speaks of "job creation" as their platform, guess how they intend on doing it? By offering those great, big, bad corporations (that liberals hate so much) great big tax credits for hiring more people (whether they need the employees or not)… So guess what that gives us… Go on, guess! It gives us great big corporations getting great big tax credits paying too many people minimum wage with no room for future advancement. But, guess what? Jobs were created!!! NOW! We have those SAME EXACT people that received those minimum wage jobs jumping up and down screaming and crying that they aren't getting paid enough or getting promoted and it's the great, big, bad corporations fault because they are greedy and getting tons of tax breaks! But, hey! It's not the politicians fault… He "created" jobs as promised!
    Please remember… Most politicians are concentrating so hard on KEEPING THEIR JOB (and all the self awarded-perks that go with it), that very few ever ACTUALLY do their job. Capitalism and corporate America are not the problem… The people (with their victim attitudes) and the politicians (partisanship, self-interest and "we exempt ourselves from the laws of the people we represent") are the problem…
    Work the problem… By evaluating YOUR thoughts, attitudes and perceptions, first… and then through those we elect.

  46. ErikGruber

    Misha0630 I understand, but if we don't raise the minimum wage to living wage then there's really no point to having a minimum wage at all. Not to mention that the minimum wage has not kept up with the rate of inflation so it's not as if we're suddenly kick starting inflation. It's not as if it's easy to find a better paying job if you just decide you're not being paid enough. And some people do not have the means to get educated. An education cost a lot of money in our country, as I'm more than aware of. The cost of higher education has exploded. It's not as accessible as some of us think. Minimum wage isn't an "equalizer" it's a regulation to ensure to take some of the burden off of taxpayers for welfare and other entitlement programs. Just like other workplace regulation like 40 hour weeks and worker safety.

  47. JayJayHaskins

    ErikGruberMisha0630 Sorry, a FREE education is pretty easy to get in this country.  Or, you can get the $$ and pay it back.  I take that back, and education isn't easy; you have to work for it.  I believe in NO minimum wage.  People take what is offered and the illegals will leave.

  48. JayJayHaskins

    KevinSpruillMicheleHensonErikGruber Kevin, you are the one on drugs.  Do you know when "Utopia" was written?

  49. JayJayHaskins

    If there is a huge difference between communism and socialism, who cares?  They are both wacko, un-American systems.  It is scary that pop culture is bringing up Socialism/Communism and the young people who don't understand them, think they are good ideas.

  50. JayJayHaskins

    ErikGruberBrianPickell So, you really mean that Communism is just a few steps down from Socialism?  Please cite all of the fabulous successes with Socialism, Mr. Gruber.

  51. JayJayHaskins

    ErikGruberShannonMCarithersBrianPickell No, we need to give LESS assistance than minimum wage provides.

  52. Misha0630

    It is no one's responsibility to motivate ANYONE but themselves. Why do so many feel that it is someone else's job to motivate them? I didn't go to college out of high school.., and guess what, I didn't expect to get paid like I had. I got married and had children young. We didn't make much money. I didn't work before the first child was school-aged because we couldn't afford day care on minimum wage. We barely survived… We didn't have cable and the power was under constant threat of being cut off for non-payment. I was there… But NEVER once did I EVER blame "the Man" or the government or the 1%. At each and every point of my adult life, I was in ANY given situation based on MY individual choices (whether previous choices or immediate choices).
    My sincerest wish is for each person to understand that EVERYTHING THEY DO IS A CHOICE… And each and every choice that an individual makes has a consequence (good or bad). And then, again, each must choose how to act or react based on our evaluation of the outcome from previous choices. Someone CHOOSES to blame everyone else and say that no one has ever been there to motivated them… That is a choice… It's a choice to pass the buck and to continue to be the victim. I will give someone a place to shower and a set of clothes and drive them around to put in job applications any day of the week and twice on Sunday (and I have)… But, don't you ever expect me to give my hard earned money to someone that doesn't work because "they never had anyone to motivate them".
    As far as the right to a dignified existence… No one has denied them that right but themselves… Use the social programs for what they're there for… A pit-stop and assistance while pulling yourself back up. Take the free rent , but get that minimum wage job (and start incrementally paying a larger portion of rent) and then start working towards a better job and then a better home… Don't squat in public housing (an industry in which I work and am intimately familiar) and say, "why should I work and pay for housing when I can stay here and watch soaps all day for free?" And then proceed to blame "the Man" for keeping you down? I see it and hear it every single day.

  53. ErikGruber

    JayJayHaskins ErikGruber Misha0630 It actually isn't very easy to get a free college education. Student loan debt is a major drag on our economy, there are tons of new grads that even if they do find jobs they are squashed by debt, even with scholarships.

  54. ErikGruber

    JayJayHaskins ErikGruber BrianPickell I don't think communism and socialism are even close. Socialism has succeeded in Canada and most of Europe.

  55. Misha0630

    I agree with you @JayJay, I am going to school as a "true freshman" for the first time at 42. I can't afford tuition, out of pocket, but I am taking out loans… It's an investment I'm willing to make. And please note (this is to the 99%'s), I am NOT getting a degree in Liberal Arts or Anthropology or any other field in which my degree may have little or no value. And if I have difficulties finding a position in my degree field after graduation, I will work that much harder at looking. I will not blame someone for "not giving me a shot" and I won't blame anyone for "ageism" (I'll be at least 46 when I graduate). And believe me… I'm not the best credit risk at this moment… 2012 saw the end my 22 year marriage (not my choice) and an exponential drop in my "accustomed" income (and an ex that didn't assist with any joint bills when he left)… But, I did not take any alimony and vowed to work hard to improve my standard of living. And even with my much lower credit score and a much smaller single-person full-time income, I am going back to school on student loans (tomorrow, in fact).

  56. guynoir

    The only things missing from this article are the documented facts. 

    What college?
    What professor?
    What class? 

  57. ErikGruber

    Misha0630 I'm happy to hear you're taking the education plunge, regardless of your age. It is a good investment no matter what. I will say that my student loan debt is crippling and I'm pretty successful in my field only my second year out of school. Sure, student loans are accessible, but they can have a damning effect after school regardless of how wise your decisions are.

  58. ErikGruber

    guynoir Apparently an economics class, which makes no sense since he would know the difference between socialism and communism.

  59. Misha0630

    @ErikGruber My question is this, do you really think that McDonalds will have a viable business model if they increase their starting pay to $10, $12 or $15 per hour? Are you going to pay $13 for that SuperSized #7? Companies are not going to give up that profit margin so, in the end, it will be passed onto to end consumer, you and me. Now, maybe you don't like McDonalds… But a many, many more are going to stop liking McDonalds at $13 per "value" meal… Then what happens? Business slows, franchises close and workers are laid off, unemployment grows, defeating the original purpose altogether… But, guess who gets blamed? it's certainly not going to be the politicians that required the increase in minimum wage. And it certainly won't be the person getting paid $12 an hour with no other viable or contributal skill other than pulling fries or flipping a burger. One should get paid in accordance with the skills required to do the job.
    And let's take big, bad corporate America out of the equation… What about the millions of small business that make up the majority of our jobs and economy… Could they sustain that type of expense without passing that coat onto their customers… We aren't talk multi-billion corporations with insane profit margins… We're talking private ownership by those just trying to make a good life for themselves and a decent job for their employees… How many business doors would be shuttered?
    As to education… If one works diligently and applies oneself (or, in other words, self-motivated) in the public school system (available to everyone), he/she has a plethora of opportunities to receive a free or drastically discounted college education. Most states have a state award, not to mention scholarships and grants, especially for those from lower incomes. But, it all comes down to choices and self-motivation… How badly do you want it and how hard are you willing to work?

  60. rtwh

    KevinSpruill True or not true it is still a fact of life and what happens when people have incentive to work. The same will happen with ACA as people not paying for their own health care will not take care of themselves and will go to the doctor more often thus increasing cost.

  61. ErikGruber

    Misha0630 The price of their meals has continually gone up while the minimum wage stays the same. It's not like that's the only factor in what they charge for their value meals. And as far as small businesses, 90% of small business pay higher than minimum wage to their entry level employees, so it's not these people that would be most affected by this. Should we continue to ignore that the minimum wage isn't a living wage so that we don't risk paying more for our big macs?
    Agreed that there awards available to them, but the rate at which the cost education is rising is not equal to amount of aide being provided/offered.

  62. slowhoa

    The socialism appliance of China failed since 1949 to 1972. From US President Richard Nixon visited, the communist regime has changed the way for economy as lizard changes skin, but they have never give up the communist. On the other hand, the capitalist rescued socialism, if not China couldn't develop as today, they become the second largest economical center in the world.
    Despite China  recognized the socialism has no way to promote the economy growth, but they don't want to lose the dictatorial government, so China and also Vietnam apply an ugly economic pattern:" free market leads by socialism". Indeed, China's development is just better for the cities, but the countryside being poor and some where else are still using the buffalo for farming.
    The socialism produces the red capitalist, the communist members do nothing, but the earn so much wealthy, then in China, a former premier Wen Jiabao has the asset estimates up to $ 2,7 billion USD, likely in Vietnam, a none people elected prime minister Nguyen Tan Dung who has the asset about $ 1,8 billion USD….The socialist leaders are the robber, the squeeze the sweat of people likely in communist countries. 
    I know very well the socialism in Vietnam, after Vietcong took over the south on April 30, 1975. I knew a high ranking cadre of communist, Mr, Nguyen Ho, 56 years membership told to his comrades at Saigon:" their house, we occupy-their wife, we take-their children, we enslave"…( if some one want to know more about the socialism, please read my first book:" the dark journey: inside the reeducation camps of Vietcong", I wrote as a communist expert and lived in the communist paradise..).
    People in socialism regime have no right to speak, their life controlled by bandit, communist party, in the human history, Karl Marx is the greatest master mind killer, his theory has created the crime more than Hitler.

  63. brucemcintyre

    First of all, this article is bullshit… Obama is not a socialist, and he doesn't make the laws anyway.  This is just another way of saying that the rich deserve everything and the rest of us should be grateful for any crumbs that fall down.

    Who paid for the highways? Who pays for the Military? Who pays to keep the banks just a little honest? Who pays to make sure our food doesn't kill us? Who pays to make sure that airplanes don't fall out of the sky? Who paid for the schools, the police, the fireman, the sidewalks, the streetlights, the national parks.

    We all do.  Is that socialism?

    In the same way, I collect social security.  Is that socialism?  Hell no, it's my money that I paid in over a period of many years, plus interest from the government.

    Let's look at your sentences.

    1. Yes you can.. During the administration of Ike, the top marginal tax rate was over 90%.  And the rich still got richer.
    2. So the unemployed (since there are no damn jobs) and the disabled should just go die?  As a matter of fact, in our consumer-driven economy, if that happened unemployement in this country would still go way up.And then ONLY the very rich (who are insulated from the economy) would get money.
    3. While this statement is true, it is overly simplistic.  If only the very rich can afford healthcare, then only the very rich will get healthcare.  If only the very rich can afford a road, then only the very rich will have a road. This is a self-evident asinine statement.  We all pay, and we all benefit.  And why is it that all of the deep red states that are so upset with the "takers" are the states that receive far more in "government" money than the blue states that the red states hate, which give far more money to the government than they take?
    4. Yes you can multiply wealth by dividing it.  The GOP wants to cut off any extension of unemployment benefits to 1.2 million people.  What will happen because of this is that between 200,000 and 300,000 other people will lose their jobs. If people don't have any money, they can'buy stuff.  If they can't buy stuff, then the people that sell the stuff, truck the stuff, make the stuff, and make the stuff that the stuff is made from lose their jobs also.
    5. This sort of exaggeration is totally false.  We do not live in a socialistic state.  Nor do we live in a totally capitalistic state.  There is a balance.  Will there every be people that abuse the system? Sure.  But most people (including you and I) would rather work..   But listen to this.  If Walmart and other companies that pay far less than a living wage, then these people will either starve or the government will find a way to help and feed them.  So you and I are subsidizing the mega corporations.  This is socialism in reverse.  Why is it that 1 in 4 American corporations pay NO income tax?  It's not because they didn't make any money.  So you and I are paying for the rich to get richer and richer, while the rich keep telling you that those darn poor are taking your money.

    If you believe these fantasies, you deserve the result.

  64. brucemcintyre

    slowhoa You conflate Socialism with Communism. They are not the same. You want to look at a modern socialist state, look at Norway and Sweden.  People live better, eat better, get better healthcare for less money, get a free education.  

    If you want to look at a pure capitalist state, try Somalia.  No government, no healthcare, no food, no industry, but the rich get richer and richer.  If you want a government controlled by religion, go to Saudi Arabia. The rich (men) get everything.  No-one else has any rights and lives at the whim of the "government" which is the king and his cronies.

    Your comments are simplistic and inaccurate.

  65. brucemcintyre

    JayJayHaskins It seems that you don't understand the difference either.  Modern socialistic states are very successful for everyone. I'm no 'youngster' but I do know the difference between a plutocracy and socialism.  What we have here in the US is not democracy, not even a republic.  We have a plutocracy, a government of the rich, by the rich, and for the rich. No one else should apply.

  66. Misha0630

    @ErikGruber (for some reason it's not highlighting my tags): minimum wage hasn't stayed the same… And if we take the minimum wage in 1938 of 25 cents and adjust it for inflation to 2013, it would only come to $4.13 (yet it's at a national minimum of $7.25 and increase from there based state and local requirements) . Inflation is not to blame, cost of living is. Yes, some small businesses pay more, but still beneath the proposed $10-12 minimum wage range that are being tossed around.
    I am not proposing to keep wages lower to defend being able to afford the occasional Big Mac.., I am saying that, as a whole, ALL prices will increase (including, milk, bread, gas, housing, underwear, notebook paper, etc.). Prices will go up because wages will go up. note that 26% of all private sector jobs would be getting a raise if the minimum wage is raised to $10 an hour – National Employment Law Project (2011), and these jobs are concentrated in industries where low-wage workers make up a substantial share of the entire workforce (mostly retail, accommodation, and food service). Again, I repeat that one should be paid according to the skill one delivers. No one is OWED a job, one EARNS a job and then one must perform the work to KEEP the job.
    Now, with more than 25% of the entire country getting a raise, prices on EVERYTHING will also rise substantially (not just the Big Mac, but your cable bill and movie theater tickets – and don't forget the aforementioned bread, milk and gas), not to mention almost ALL hiring will come to a standstill). EVERYONE'S discretionary dollars will now be substantially decreased and must be fought over by ALL existing business (like McDonalds and Regal Cinemas – remember, these are the places that employ this demographic). Now, the $10 workers don't have any discretionary income and are still falling behind because prices are rising. The middle class is also squeezed with higher prices and those that were barely making it before are now starting to slip behind (maybe they were already making $10-$15 before the wage increase), but in any case, they've also lost quite a bit of discretionary dollars. So, now we have over 3/4 of the country's population deciding on making dinners at home instead of eating out (food service), staying at home for vacations because it's too expensive to travel (accommodation), and spending more cautiously and thriftily on everything else (retail). With the diminished spending in industries that employ this many lower-skilled, lower-waged workers, it stands to reason that many, many businesses will be closing (at worst) and laying off a great many (at best). Are we better off than before? Now we have a great number of people unemployed and a large number of businesses closing. Now, social assistance programs are increasing exponentially, placing an additional burden on the country… I could continue… But the outlook continues to darken… Creating a "simple" solution of "raising the minimum wage" doesn't seem so simple in the long run… But, hey, that would be yet ANOTHER administrations problem… Wouldn't it?
    In a nutshell… I disagree with paying someone $10 an hour if they are not providing a service that should be valued at $10 an hour.

  67. PamSmith4

    brucemcintyre JayJayHaskins don't forget Australia, it's a wondeful place to live and as an American who lived in Australia can testify to their way of life and free health care, education etc etc.   Unfortunatley,  not a lot of Americans can live overseas to get a true appreciation of the way of life, therefor they're forced to believe what they're told by US politics.

  68. hck

    brucemcintyre Opening an attempt at argument with "it's BS" is a classic logic fallacy.  It is designed to invoke knee-jerk reactions and demonstrates the fallacy of the remainder of your argument.
    Yes, Social Security is socialistic.  Socialism, no, socialistic, YES.
    No, roads, highways, etc. are NOT socialistic _OR_ socialism, but part of the "promote the GENERAL welfare" preamble to the Constitution.
    The Constitution does not guarantee or promise INDIVIDUAL welfare, nor did the Declaration of Independence.
    Nearly every person I have known who was laid off and started going on unemployment treated it as a paid vacation.  They only seriously started seeking gainful employment when their benefits neared expiration.
    As for your uber-fallacy of "you and I are subsidizing the mega corporations", no, you are not.  THE CORPORATIONS ARE SUBSIDIZING YOU.
    They don't HAVE to hire you.  They can hire anyone they want.  If you don't want the job, DON'T FREAKING TAKE IT.
    And why is it that 1 in 4 corporations pay no income tax???
    Have you ever dug up statistics for yourself instead of REGURGITATING bogus (means fake) statistics abused by the liberal-left???
    The number of small corporations outweighs the large corporations.  And the majority of them MAKE NO PROFIT, and pay no taxes.
    Your statistic is one of the "false truths" force-fed by the liberal-left to their blindly-accepting followers.  Yeah, it's true.  NO IT DOES NOT MEAN WHAT THEY SAY IT MEANS.

  69. slowhoa

    You couldn't compare between the health care system of US and Australia or the others country in Europe. Us population is 300 million, and Australia is 23 million.

  70. slowhoa

    brucemcintyre slowhoa In US or any democratic country, the socialist couldn't apply the Karl Marx theory likely in the communist regime with" capitalist beaten" that follows the killing and robbing, plus enslave people. However, the tax and social reform are the" capitalist beaten". In Australia, under the first female prime minister, miss Julia Gillard, she declared herself as socialist, then she beat people by carbon tax, that harms for economy, it has became the controversy and her part lost election in 2013. ( carbon tax, asylum seeker are the main subject for election on September 7, 2013).
    The socialist and communist are the same from radical theory of Karl Marx, but they have to exercise as the different way, however the purpose is the same. After Karl Marx devised the socialism, his pupils in Europe have to use the socially left wing party, they couldn't do the same way in Russia, China…

  71. fah451bks

    absolute nonsense even the premise that all will be equal in a socialist economy for an unequal effort doesn't apply in any socialist system the rewards are still based on production, labor, quality and results what idiots who wrote this crap! I will give you abetter example the somewhat Socialist team profit plan for the NFL all the revenues from all the NFLs teams profits go into one pie and are split up equally so all the teams can afford to play on a level economic playing field irregardless of a single seasons results This helps maintain Quality performance and presentation of the sport Having any problems with the NFL's results lately I don't think so, are players all paid the same I don't think so.

  72. AubreyDurkin

    Sweetie, your point would be much more well-received if you adhered to common principles of using the English language.  You cannot equate the division of wealth within ONE career to the same principle across a huge range of occupations.  Why would I want to finish my PhD when I can slough off (they call it social loafing) and get paid the same to flip burgers? There is a reason behind capitalism.  The proverbial carrot in front of your face helps to separate the wheat from the chaff, the sugar from the crap. I do believe there are problems within the system, but socialism would probably mean no more doctors, no more businesses, etc. For example, I worked hard in my English Honors classes…apparently you did not.  We would clearly not earn the same grade in a fair system.  In a socialist system, we would get the same grade…I would eventually entertain the idea of not working very hard.  Hell, it doesn't matter how hard I work anymore.  The fact is that the nation needs people who excel at something, and a proportional reward for it.  It would not take long to see this effect as people would decide to become social sponges in masses.  The article raises a very good point and was a great case study to drive the point home.  If you cannot see that, YOU are part of the problem.

  73. nomad_newyork

    hck brucemcintyre Interesting that you should bring up "false truths" on such an obviously fake article. Let's have the author come back with sources, with the name of the professor, the school, anything that makes this story more than a right wing wet dream fable.

  74. nomad_newyork

    AubreyDurkin Interesting. I see that you understand Socialism well.  
    I am not a socialist and do not particularly understand it. I did not realize that in socialism everyone gets the same grade and the same pay regardless of whether or not they are flipping burgers or are physicians. Is it true that there would be no doctors in a Socialist Country? Are there any Socialist countries that we could look at to back up your thesis? Is the same true for a Communist country? Are there doctors in China? People with PhD's or do they all just sit around flipping burgers all day? If there are no businesses, how does their economy work, like how do they have so much money to lend the United States? I would love to see some sources on this. Thanks.

  75. PattyAnn1

    Misha0630 social security is not an AWARD!!!! It is an insurance we work for all our lives in case we become disabled or we retire and do not get a pension.NO WORK NO SOCIAL SECURITY SO SCREW YOU!

  76. PattyAnn1

    Misha0630 (CLAP,CLAP,CLAP) BRAVO,BRAVO Look at you your being a grown up,good for you!!!!! You want a medal or something????

  77. MikeMartin2

    ErikGruberShannonMCarithersBrianPickell Raising the minimum wage isn't the answer.  Going to college, educating yourself makes more sense.

  78. DanielMitchell1

    brucemcintyre Actually, the police, schools, fire fighters etc. are a great example of Socialism.  We all pitch in and everyone benefits.

  79. chicocdm

    nomad_newyork If you need more sources study the death toll around China, North Korea, USSR, Cambodia, Germany, Cuba….Marxism and Socialism are more dangerous than smoking or cancer and is far more preventable. The only difference between Marxism and Socialism is one wants to accomplish it through voting the other through armed revolution. Same horrific results. Death, destruction and mass poverty.

  80. PattyAnn1


  81. chicocdm

    SeanMcAlpin You don't need snoopes or this classroom example to see that Marxism and Socialism are so horribly wrong and disastrous that only people who ignore its catastrophic results are foolish enough to try it again.  You are better off taking up smoking than these destructive ideologies.  Yes!  When fully implemented the death toll is worse than smoking or cancer with just the USSR as an example.

  82. chicocdm

    DanielMitchell1 NO! Those are NOT examples of socialism. Medicare, SS, Obamacare – those are actual socialism, social engineering designed to transfer wealth and have politicians decide who fails and who succeeds.  Having a fire department, a police force and basic services to function are NOT socialism. Cut out this nonsense. Nothing is more dangerous than this ideology that America has been able to keep at bay for so long. Lets not become North Korea, China, Cuba, Cambodia etc. This stuff creates the greatest poverty and loss of human life the earth has ever seen. Its not an innocent thing and its well documented.

  83. Speeddymon

    Basic scientific research always benefits from repeat tests and larger sample sizes, as well as being more closely matched to reality. A classroom setting substituting grades for dollars does not reflect the realities of the econommy. The fact of the matter is that right now, the top 1% has more than the bottom 80% combined, and the legislation being passed it meant to "re-distribute" to the lower 80% in order to balance out the top 20% more evenly. The middle class isn't the ones getting screwed so hard, which is why the upper class is so against it that they have to trumpet it into the middle classes collective heads.

    Unfortunately my message will fall on mostly deaf eaars.

  84. JoelStoner

    The only difference between Socialism and Communism is that in Socialism everyone owns everything, and in Communism the government owns everything. Neither of which has ever worked in the long term, eventually they fall apart.

    Many people also cry about Democracy, without really knowing the true meaning of Democracy. A true democracy is everyone voting on everything. You want to build something, your neighbors vote on whether or not you can do it.

    I see so many people trying to sound smart defending socialism, communism, and democracy. When it is obvious that they did not pay attention in history class. Your college professors who told you socialism, communism, or democracy work… well those who can do, and those who can't teach.

    Do not comment on this unless you are willing to provide real facts, as i do not want to hear you cry when i produce facts.

  85. JeffWalters1

    nomad_newyorkAubreyDurkin Obviously there are Doctors in Socialist and Communist Nations. It's just that since the Government limits their financial reward, they are not the best and the brightest like you have in free market economies. Here are a couple of links to some information on the quality of care here as opposed to the rest of the World.

    If you care to take the time to wade through all this information I think you will come to the conclusion that the U.S. has the best health care system, but not necessarily the best health outcomes. This is partly due to our unhealthy lifestyles including poor eating habits. Our poor diet and the epidemic of obesity in the U.S. are at least partially attributable to the Government agencies that regulate our food supply. They are the ones who allow the use of high fructose corn syrup to sweeten almost everything. What isn't sweetened with that garbage is sweetened with dangerous "low-calorie" chemical sweeteners. And almost all of our meat comes from animals that are fed an unnatural diet high in corn and other starches designed to make the animals fatter and the meat more marbled, not to mention the high doses of antibiotics they are fed. Some of these studies also tried to equate smoking as a factor that causes us to fare poorer, but I discount that because I think smoking rates in other Countries are probably equal to or higher than in the U.S.

  86. cadlebe

    Sources? Documentation? Name of the college? Name of the professor? This is absolutely terrible writing. I will not even venture to say that this is bad journalism, it would have to be journalism before I could label it as bad. Do us all a favor, the next time you write something site your sources and your documentation like the professional you are pretending to be.

  87. nomad_newyork

    JeffWalters1 nomad_newyork AubreyDurkin Well, it's good to know that there are doctors in China.
    Thank you so much for sharing so many FACTS with me. I will take a look at some of those links.

  88. nomad_newyork

    chicocdm That's not what I asked. I imagine the death toll would be very high if there are no doctors though. Thanks.

  89. nomad_newyork

    ErikGruber GrahamTuttle MicheleHenson A large percentage of the population is educated because education is extremely cheap or even free?

  90. nomad_newyork

    KevinSpruill MicheleHenson ErikGruber THOUSANDS of years. THOUSANDS!  Utopia? That place where everyone had two slaves?

  91. ErikGruber

    MikeMartin2 ErikGruber ShannonMCarithers BrianPickell That is an answer, unfortunately it is becoming less of an attainable one due to the skyrocketing cost.

  92. Public123

    BobYoung1 A statement is not true just because you say it is. Nor can it be spot on to anything if nothing is cited. 
    [citation needed]

  93. albertagirl

    Misha0630 I am in Canada and my daughter worked for Macdonalds last summer at the age of 14. She was earning just over 10 dollars an hour. As a mature adult with the life experience I have, I am quite confident I would be hired on no less then 12 an hour. What you need to ask yourself with the profits Macdonalds earn..How can they afford to offer livable wages in other countries and yet not the country they originate and earned the ability to expand from. I can say the same for Walmart here as well. They do not pay a livable wage in most States mainly because in some states it is harder to get a job at Macdonalds then it is to get into Harvard for a better education. They do not pay a livable wage simply because they can. The Gov't needs to flip the rules in favor of the corp's and absolutely balance them to meet the needs of the many as appose to the wants of the few. I am sure we all know who the many and who the few are. In all my young years working minimum wage jobs have I ever needed the help of gov't to live or even get by. Those day's are gone. Why? The rules are far to unbalanced. Enough with the socialism propaganda. We are a socially conscience people. This is why people of other countries look up to us, want to be like us, and want what we have. This fear of prices shooting through the roof or stores closing is absolutely a myth. To pay a livable wage will hardly put a dent in there "billions per year" profits. And if that were the case, ask yourself again how and why do they keep building more and more mega stores here?

  94. albertagirl

    I am in Canada and my daughter worked for Macdonalds last summer at the age of 14. She was earning just over 10 dollars an hour. As a mature adult with the life experience I have, I am quite confident I would be hired on no less then 12 an hour. What you need to ask yourself with the profits Macdonalds earn..How can they afford to offer livable wages in other countries and yet not the country they originate and earned the ability to expand from. I can say the same for Walmart here as well. They do not pay a livable wage in most States mainly because in some states it is harder to get a job at Macdonalds then it is to get into Harvard for a better education. They do not pay a livable wage simply because they can. The Gov't needs to flip the rules in favor of the corp's and absolutely balance them to meet the needs of the many as appose to the wants of the few. I am sure we all know who the many and who the few are. In all my young years working minimum wage jobs have I ever needed the help of gov't to live or even get by. Those day's are gone. Why? The rules are far to unbalanced. Enough with the socialism propaganda. We are a socially conscience people. This is why people of other countries look up to us, want to be like us, and want what we have. This fear of prices shooting through the roof or stores closing is absolutely a myth. To pay a livable wage will hardly put a dent in there "billions per year" profits. And if that were the case, ask yourself again how and why do they keep building more and more mega stores here?

  95. albertagirl

    I found this, it is very recent and should you have the time, take a read.Obama the socialist ?
    Posted by&nbsp ; in
    ≈&nbsp ;
    Tags, …
    So recently I’ve been hearing a lot about how Barack Obama is the world’s newest socialist dictator. Mainly because of his new Obamacare (Affordable Healthcare Act) policy, wild assertions and allegations have been shooting off left, right and centre – just proving how much ignorance exists in America.
    I’m a British citizen, with a pretty good grasp of politics, and compared to our government, Obama is no where near socialism – maybe because society doesn’t let him go near it, or because he’s actually not as liberal as people claim.
    In the UK we had a welfare system created by Clement Attlee’s Labour government between 1945 – 1951. In this year the NHS (National Heath Service) was created, giving every British citizen the right to free healthcare. Why? Not because he wanted to destroy the capitalist system, or because he was a Communist (whatever that means nowadays), but because he believed that the country would strive more if workers were healthy, and that nobody deserved to die because of their financial situation. He also believed in Keynesian economics – that in order for the economy to prosper, you must feed more money into the economy – you must create jobs, protect workers and consequently strengthen industry.
    At the time this set the foundations for real socialism in the UK – and at the time the Labour party was a sort-of socialist party (unlike today, where they’re quite central/right-wing).
    In America everything was different – people believed, and still believe, in ‘rugged individualism’ – that they deserve what they earn, so if they earn nothing and die because of it, they deserved that death. Why? Because capitalism is beautiful – well, until you have another Wall Street Crash, where the rich get richer, and the middle class who naively bought into capitalism lose everything.
    Because of this rugged individualism – where everybody fends for themselves – they absolutely despise of systems such as the NHS. Why should they pay tax in order to help other people who haven’t worked as hard as them and therefore deserve to die? Well – in the UK it’s because we’re nice people, with some sense of morality – I’m not sure the average American would be able to empathise with this.
    In fact, 45,000 people die per year because they can’t afford health insurance in the United States – people who don’t deserve to die. People who have died because other people get rich at their expense.
    Obama understands that this must change – and therefore introduced Obamacare, not where you could get free healthcare treatment, but where you could more easily sign up for insurance. For instance, it ends discrimination against those who have a pre-existing medical condition – a change which needed to happen.
    But let’s make one thing clear – you STILL have to pay for healthcare.
    And that’s why Obama is inherently no where near as socialist as we are in the UK.
    So why does he want to make the country healthier – perhaps it’s because he can’t escape the thought of people dying through no fault of their own. Or perhaps it’s because he understands that the fact that 45,000 people needlessly die each year shows one thing – America is weak. It can’t look after its own – and a civilisation isn’t civilised when it can’t look after its own.
    However, Americans must understand that this isn’t true socialism. In fact, some American call him communist because of his acts – obviously these people don’t actually know what communism is, and just use it as slander, because he definitely isn’t anywhere near communism.
    When he starts to do things such as nationalising key industries,  makes healthcare free and increases taxes in order to increase benefits (the dole), that’s when he can be called socialist. At present, he’s nowhere near.
    We must also ask why people in America are so afraid of socialism – perhaps because they liken it to the policies of the NAZI party – when in fact they were crazy fascist dictators, working under the illusion of socialism. Socialism is not bad – it can operate fully under a democracy, and it can make a country stronger and more profitable. I challenge anyone to come up with a coherent argument against socialism which I’d happily rebut.
    And finally – let me remind you of Cuba. Americans call Cuba marxist-lenonist, and whether or not this is true, or whether it’s just slander, is questionable – but it’s certainly a socialist, bordering on communist country, and a very successful one. In fact, its got one of the best education systems in the world, far better than the UK or USA.
    So – the questions are: is Obama a socialist, is socialism bad, and does America need to change?
    I’ll leave the latter for you to decide.Share this:

  96. MelissaJaneSharma

    I'm sure parents enjoyed paying for this experiment as their kids will have to retake this course

  97. Misha0630

    PattyAnn1 Misha0630  Hmmm… Harsh words, but I will respond.  I am not saying that Social Security is an award, but neither is it "insurance".  It is a benefit that you and I pay into and I (as should you) expect, at some time, to recoup the investment of that benefit.  It is meant to be a "savings account" of sorts to pay out when one retires and/or can no longer work.  But, when my benefits are cut and/or delayed (and thereby shortened or decreased in value), it is no longer my benefit, as those benefits (that I paid for) have been directly sent to someone else because "their need was greater than mine".  Social security is flawed based on the fact that it expects the current generations to pay out to the past generations that worked before us.  To be fair and honest, I don't agree with the Social Security concept at all, either.  If I do not save enough for my retirement, that is MY fault.  I don't expect anyone to pay me because I screwed up.  But, as we are all forced into participating (meaning that there is no "opt out" option), I do expect to recoup my full investment into the program.  However, because the government has mismanaged these funds and/or diverted those monies that were specifically marked for ONE purpose (SSI benefits), we know that there isn't enough money to cover the promised benefits.  And so, in the long run, I know that the government will squander away even more of my (and your) money and I will probably not see the full value of the promised benefit of yet another "wonderful government program" created to "help the people".  Why do you think they started the 401K program?  Because they knew SSI wouldn't be able to do all that it had originally promised to do.  I hope you aren't relying on Social Security for your retirement…

  98. Misha0630

    PattyAnn1 Misha0630 and, for the record, I don't expect an award… those are earned.  My point is that bad things happen and we all must make choices.  My choice was to fix it, not sit back and cry that life is not fair and that someone should fix it for me.  The possibility of an education is out there.  One must work for it and pay for it, but it is there.

  99. slowhoa

    albertagirl The social welfare and health care have to have in the most nation, but everyone country being faced the different situation. UK, US, Australia, Canada…are not the same. The government find anyway to promote people getting better the living condition, but the question:" where is money come from?"…likely, a parent in UK wants send the children to Eton college, but they have not enough income.

  100. Pahoran

    albertagirl Individual McDonalds restaurants are owned and operated by franchisees who determine the pay rate of their employees based in part on the profitability of the restaurant and the prevailing wage in their foodservice sector in the local economy. Profits made by the McDonalds corporation are an irrelevant factor. In the United States, McDonalds is one of the cheapest fast food restaurants and as such, probably has lower profit margins than restaurants that charge higher prices. Many McDonalds franchises in foreign countries charge significantly higher prices, which bring in more revenue to pay their employees. If all employers are forced to pay artificially inflated wages, the most profitable businesses will be able to continue operating by reducing their profit margin. However, many businesses will be forced to raise their prices to compensate for the higher wages and if their consumers are unwilling to pay the higher prices, they will be forced out of business, thereby putting all of their employees out of work. In the end, the government will be creating a few winners (earning higher wages) and many losers (earning nothing at all).

  101. GordoVipperman

    People do not die because they have no insurance. Over 2.4 million people in the US die yearly, that includes 45,000 who have no insurance.  So many more people die with insurance…right

  102. TomBarnhart

    BobYoung1 cadlebe JoelStoner  it's pure rhetoric… a good analogy… but not nearly as good as good ole Joe the Plumber who won't become "legitimately" self employed until tax rates are lower. But as cadlebe said… there is nothing to address here.
    Except the fact that many people here don't know the definition of communism and socialism and how they relate to capitalism.
    Ignorance breeds Joe The Plumber types.

  103. MikeGarbizo

    MelissaJaneSharmasometimes lessons are learned best through failures. Everyone of the students in that class fought for this idea only to learn the truth of what has made America so great of a nation, hint, it had nothing to do with socialism.

  104. ErikGruber

    GordoVipperman Maybe not as a direct cause, but it is a statistical fact that people with insurance live longer.

  105. GregPack

    "Can you think of a reason for not sharing this on Twitter or Facebook?  Neither could I."

    I'd love to share it. However,  without names of colleges and professors this story is likely bogus.  That's the reason I won't share it. If you can find the names and date of this event please share it.

  106. ErikGruber

    BobYoung1 Public123 No, it demonstrate why communism fails. Socialism is something completely different.

  107. SaraBower

    This is adorable. A nameless college and professor and vague story-telling reminiscent of junk mail or that bogus Albert Einstein-Professor-God story that everyone stupidly touts as fact.

  108. TheRealMrTim

    MikeGarbizo Right…America doesn't have socialized education nor socialized police and fire departments. Private corporations built our highways. Companies never get R&D grants subsidized from the government, and when big businesses fail, they never get a socialized bailout. America!

  109. gburg61

    I have seen socialism close up…people die when govt stops our creators keep what you earn…to live in peace without being told how to live(you must be charitable or you will be punished)). giving to the less fortunate is up to the individual NOT the govt. THIS is the reason we broke away from englands tyranny and established our constitution. Nazi germany began exactly the same way as our govt acts today. govt cannot GIVE away anything without taking it first.
    healthcare is just another service and the best service should go to those who pay for it. that way we ALL strive to move up the ladder not down into a thousand years of darkness…this is NOT a game this real.

  110. drunkman

    TheRealMrTim MikeGarbizo Private industry did build the highway, its called private contracting……You obviously haven't heard of Rural/Metro either, and plenty of private schools which perform a lot better than public schools. Sure we have government ran industry, only because people think we are better off with them, yet they all for the most part fail. We will continue to add to the failure and try to regulate the rich, which only leads to blocking out the poor from industry. Your socialism builds a cast society but everyone is taken care of right? History shows great nations fall to this idea but lets keep the failure flowing because we are stubborn and lack a notion of consequence from personal choice.

  111. ErikGruber

    drunkman TheRealMrTim MikeGarbizo Who do you think paid the private contractors. Recent history shows that nations prosper under socialism.

  112. drunkman

    gburg61 albertagirl It would be great if these socialist wanting rights grabbers finally understand that their voting for benefits is the reason other costs are going up, health care, education etc.

  113. JoeMcGillian

    ErikGruberGordoVippermanIs that correlation or causation though? If they have insurance, that would be an indicator they that are better off financially to begin with and can afford things like good nutrition and exercise, combined with lower stress levels.

  114. drunkman

    cadlebe That whole Russian farmer revolt thing, and part of Romes failure…..Same principle. Whether its real or not its a lesson to many people don't understand. Here's and interesting thought, what does government do, when particular industry, like ag, decides they don't want to take part in a big government market?

  115. Nick11766

    Socialism, yet another violation of our rights.   The gov’t constantly violates our rights. 
    They violate the 1st Amendment by caging protesters and banning books like “America Deceived II”.
    They violate the 4th and 5th Amendment by allowing TSA to grope you.
    They violate the entire Constitution by starting undeclared wars.
    Impeach Obama.
    Last link of “America Deceived II” before it is completely banned:

  116. Spider2769

    A crap teacher, and doesn't explain what socialism is or isn't. And to put the President's name for some stupid experiment doesn't prove anything except that ignorance prevails within a system of injustice. Socialism isn't about "Averaging" dollars therefore removing "Rewards" from those who study harder than others. The smartest physicist, scientist, biologist, chemist, engineers, aren't millionaires or billionaires. Idiots like Donald Trump know nothing about measuring the distances between 2 spaces, Charles and David Koch didn't "invent" or create anything. Talk about those who study, vs those who study little? The smartest people do not have nor control all of the money. So capitalism isn't about meritocracy, it's about "Racial Welfare". Owning buildings and property you don't build, having money and wealth you damn sure didn't earn or work for…. Completely stupid article that has no "point" to it.

  117. gawd521

    If this was real I'd fail the teacher for using communism to demonstrate socialism. Socialism isn't about making everybody absolutely equal like communism, if he wanted to demonstrate socialism it would be more accurate to do a typical grade curve. Obama's policies aren't even extreme enough to be considered socialism either.

  118. RosieMaty

    GregPack Bogus?  Or hypothetical example?  It teaches a relevant point about socialism.  Many teachers and others use hypotheticals, just as they use analogies to make concepts more clear and in a way the students can relate.  Facts are important, but even they can  mislead.  One can relate a factual example that is not at all representative of reality.  It can be the oddball or anomoly situation which may be factual, but does not accurately represent most of reality. A hypothetical example, while not hard, factual evidence,  does not necessarily invalidate the key  point being made.

  119. RosieMaty

    ErikGruber GordoVipperman And there could be multiple causes of their living longer.  They take better care of themselves, are less risky in their behavior, avoid unhealthy activities.  Having insurance may be an effect of better overall choices rather than the cause of living longer.

  120. ErikGruber

    RosieMaty ErikGruber GordoVipperman I know a lot of people (especially younger people) who take good care of themselves but don't have insurance. Maybe in the larger scheme it is correlation, but that is not always the case that people without insurance are irresponsible. Many simply can't/couldn't afford it.

  121. RosieMaty

    ErikGruber RosieMaty GordoVipperman And this is true especially now that young people who do take care of themselves cannot afford Obamacare because premiums and deductibles are out of their reach.  Obamacare should be repealed since it was absurd to throw out a system that worked for 85% of Americans.  They could have focused on the uninsured, even paid for them outright without up-ending the  the entire system and thrown millions off their policies.  (With millions more to come this year)  Anybody who voted for this disaster of a law without reading it should never hold public office again.  Health care reform should have been done in a more focused, smarter, more efficient, smaller way that would have worked better.  Tort reform, high-risk pools, —there were many measures that could have been enacted to serve the 15% who had no insurance,.  I've concluded this law was not about improving health care;  it's about redistributing wealth and strengthening federal power over the people.

  122. Hoover101

    Communism is the end goal of socialism. The teacher is correct in demonstrating that the end goal is flawed and that the populous will not operate as desired on the basis of providing for those in need of a good grade. We are motivated on self achievements not purely on altruism. As it turns out, capitalism is the highest form of altruism even though the intended affect is to help and progress your own standard of living. It just so happens that others benefit when you selfishly seek to lift your standard of living.

  123. MarcFrischhertz

    This is total BS.  It is an extreme example.  Pure Capitalism results in the same thing.  1% have everything and the rest of the people give up bc they no longer believe the playing field is fair and the deck is stacked against them. 
    I suspect this story, which doesn't name the professor or the school, is just a conservative utopian dream.

  124. tjompatetjaskat

    Don't fool yourself! Coming from a very SOCIALISTIC country, I can attest to the FACT that what the teacher did was to give a totally true abbreviated picture of what the end result is of people's behavior in a socialistic environment. I see what has happened to my birth country over the years, and sadly to say, what the teacher exemplified in his classroom, is exactly what happens over time with people who do not have the incentive to reap what they plant. I guess it it human nature to want to take the easy way out if there is one. But in such a society there is no great ambition or reason to really excel either. Great inventions, and greatness in human nature level out to the average, and the greatness that could have been evaporates into mediocrity.

  125. RobMacDonald

    I'm still trying to see this Obama socialism.  I look, I look hard, but I don't see a hint of socialism.  Is it obamacare?  Cause, sorry folks, that's not socialized medicine, that's capitalism style medicine written and enforced by the pharmaceutical and insurance industries.

    And this is hardly an example of anything related to reality.  In fact, a better experiement is to hand 5 of the students all of the marks, and tell them you can keep these to yourselves, even though you didn't really earn it, or you can share it amongst those working under you, who DID earn it.  Then have the students explain why they didn't feel the need to share the wealth they didn't earn.

    Man, the mental gymnastics conservatives are able to do are amazing.  Should be an olympic event.

  126. RobMacDonald

    SaraBower Couldn't agree more, there's so many things wrong with the "article" I'd suspect the professors name is Sorchal Faal.

    Google it if you don't get it.

    Conservatives, gotta give them credit, the believe so strongly in the things they believe, they are willing to just flat out make crap up

  127. RobMacDonald

    RosieMaty GregPack You mean communisim, as this "experiment" bares little resemblance to socialism.

    But, my obviously conservative friend, you might be wise to educated yourself on a simple, provable fact.  Your elected representatives, you know, those warning you about how socialized medicine will ruin your country, are in fact receiving socialized medicine, that you paid for.

    Good for the goose, good for the gander some would say.  I, on the other hand, would rather say pull your head out of your ass and learn about your government and country, you've clearly lost touch with reality.

  128. RobMacDonald

    TheRealMrTim MikeGarbizo and the government doesn't give it's employees socialized medicare.  Oh wait…. they totally do, add that to your list. 

    I'm glad to see so many, apparently Americans, on the ball on this subject, it's easy to assume the whole country is conservative the way the media plays it.

  129. RobMacDonald

    gburg61 albertagirl Did you honestly just compare the US to the run up to Nazi Germany?  Clearly this professor taught you a lot.  

    What's it like to live in Bizaroo world?  Sounds fun, and maybe a little scary.

  130. Hoover101

    It would please me greatly if MarcFrischhertz could provide one example where capitalism created an economy where 1% of the populous had everything and the rest gave up. Capitalism promotes prosperity by allowing everyone the same opportunity for success. Capitalism enables each man the ability to rise above the social class that  he was born into  through inventiveness and hard work. 

    I can think of many countries whose citizens suffered worse economically after the implementation of socialist and communist principles.  (i.e. North Korea, USSR, Cuba, Spain, etc.)

  131. RobMacDonald

    JoelStoner Then you are probably aware that the USA is a constitutional republic, not a democracy.

    Don't reply unless you want more butthurt from a Canadian who clearly knows more about your country and government than you do.  

    Socialism = every is treated equally
    Communism = the government owns everything, workers are government fodder
    Facism = government colludes with corporations 
    Democracy = 51% of the people control 49% of the people

    And guess what?  The only "ism" the US fits into now, is Fascism.

  132. RobMacDonald

    nomad_newyork AubreyDurkin Well my country of origin, Canada, is considered to be "socialist"

    And guess what?  We beat the hell out of the US on just about every "best place to…" list.  Infant survivability?  Intensely better under out evil socialized medicine.  

    In fact, the only thing we tend to lag behind on is Millionaires, we don't have as many of them around, but that's changing as our government, and country, continues to take a conservative stance.

  133. jwetterlin

    TheRealMrTimMikeGarbizohaha, citizens did pay for those, it's called tax. it's unbelievable how people think the government produces all of these things without the use of tax dollars. and idk if you can connect the dots but private corporations pay taxes.

  134. jwetterlin

    RobMacDonaldRosieMatyGregPack representatives are actually exempt from obamacare, who needs to educate themselves?

  135. RobMacDonald

    JeffWalters1 nomad_newyork AubreyDurkin Lol not even the US government is willing to say they have the best healthcare system, they don't.  I could provide links to explain that in detail, but you wouldn't read them anyways.

    The US has one of the best systems to access healthcare, if you can afford it. It certainly doesn't have the "best and the brightest"

    Maybe it's just me, but I'd prefer the guy operating on my heart is doing it because he wants to be a doctor and wants to help people, not because he's going to miss the next payment on his Porsche.

    You might want to research your opinion using resources not provided directly by the industry in question, how about the WHO, or UN reports, you know, those unbiased and not connected to the industry in question.

    Yeah, i know, totally different story there isn't it.

    People like you make me sad, fox news said it, it has to be true, here's a bunch of unsourced blog posts to support it.

  136. RobMacDonald

    jwetterlin RobMacDonald RosieMaty GregPack Of course they are, because they have TRUE socialized medicine, Obamacare is not even comparable to socialized medicine.  And, for the record, I think Obama is the worst president in awhile, on actions alone, and Obamacare, even before it was gutted, was a pile of excrement, and i get offended that so many call it socialism.

  137. jwetterlin

    RobMacDonaldgburg61albertagirl he is taking an educated approach and seeing that there are several similarities in the direction this country is heading and the way nazi germany was headed in the antebellum wwII period. he is not saying we will go as far as the nazis, but he is pointing out that those people didnt get what they signed up for.  to say that what were doing now doesn't relate to the actions taken by pre-wwII nazis is ignorant and uneducated

  138. mashuribc

    Hoover101Please point to any example of true capitalism.  That means NO GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION WHATSOEVER.  If you mean the current U.S. system, well that is crony capitalism, bordering on fascism.The old-school guys called it by its long-standing, old-school name: Mercantilism.

  139. jwetterlin

    RobMacDonaldJoelStoneryour definition of socialism is way off. are you telling me the guy who gets taxed 100,000 a year is treated fairly compaired to the guy the government pays 30,000 a year too?

  140. jwetterlin

    RobMacDonaldJoelStonerthe answer is no they treat all individuals differently, they help some and hurt others, keep your opinions in canada bro, you guys are really prospering up there. LOL

  141. george_m

    jwetterlin RobMacDonald gburg61 albertagirl At the time the people of Germany didn't really get to choose what to sign up for – their society was in such a depression that they were desperate – a factor which makes this a flawed comparison. People idolised in the Nazi manifesto because they had no other choice – Hitler was a very powerful speaker, and German people fooled themselves into thinking that his leadership was needed in order to come out of a terrible depression. So I don't think that the rise of the Nazi party and the terrible crimes which they committed was a result of socialism, but instead a result of Hitler's leadership and the political/social/economic situation in Germany at the time.

  142. jwetterlin

    george_mjwetterlinRobMacDonaldgburg61albertagirl kinda like us citizens dont have a choice to sign up for healthcare? we are in a economic lull. obama is a very powerful speaker.  people idolise the obama manifesto.  people fooled themselves into thinking they needed obamas leadership in order to come out of a terrible depression. 
    see it now?

  143. joshskt

    This article only exemplifies our terrible education system; I'm tempted to believe this is fake news, nobody can be this stupid.

  144. george_m

    jwetterlin george_m RobMacDonald gburg61 albertagirl No – not like that at all. 

    The current American 'depression' is no where near as bad as the one in Germany. In Germany they were having to burn money because it was cheaper than fuel. They were starving and fighting for food and shelter. They did not have a choice – Hitler was the only light at the end of this tunnel. 

    Perhaps you're being the one who's ignorant.

  145. jwetterlin

    socialized medicine is when the government pays for your healthcare, not your employer. those people get their healthcare through the same people who write them their paycheck. if they lose their jobs they lose their healthcare. it is definately NOT socialized medicine, just an employer providing for their employee.

  146. jwetterlin

    american people make it seem like were in a depression right now. and even if that's not really relevant, what about the rest of the similarities?

  147. MarcFrischhertz

    The NFL is completely socialist and is the most popular sport in America.  The team that finishes first, picks last in the draft.  There is a salary cap, so the rich and poor teams spend the same ammount.  All revenue is shared…. 
    Answer me this, Why hasn't the socialist NFL failed?
    In contrast, MLB is purely capitalistic.  The rich buy all the players they want, and the poor teams just eat it.  The fans of the poor teams know from day one they don't have a shot.  Just like poor people in a purely capitalistic society, the fans of the poor teams have pretty much given up hope.  Sure there is that one team that for one year can make some noise, but that is really an illusion to help continue to sell the system to the have nots. 
    MLB on the decline,  NFL more popular than ever.  So don't give me this capitalism in it's purest form is the way to go.
    plus, this is a real example, not like the one the writer made up

  148. Hoover101

    mashuribc Hoover101  I agree with your statement that the United States federal government intervenes with private business in a manner that reflects fascism. The free market in the U.S has been greatly impeded by regulation and this has also been/still is the case in many countries that impose regulations on business. However, history shows that where free market capitalism exists unimpeded, the citizens of that society prosper comparatively to their initial circumstances. 

    I can not provide for you any particular instance where no government intervention occurred in a capitalist society. I can only state that those capitalist societies with the least government intervention have fared better than societies with high degrees of regulation and mandates.

  149. jwetterlin

    george_mRobMacDonaldgburg61albertagirlamericans have no choice but to do as the government told them when it comes to healthcare, obama is a very powerful speaker, people idolize the obama manifesto (at least they used to) and people fooled themselves into thinking they needed obama. you just discredited 20% of that arguement and you think its void now?

  150. george_m

    jwetterlin george_m RobMacDonald gburg61 albertagirl All of the other similarities depend on the depression – for instance, the fact that both Hitler and Obama were good speakers – this meant that it was easier for Hitler to exploit people who were facing poverty. OK, some people in the US will be in financial hardship and choose to support Obama because it sounds like their only choice, but no where near as many as in Nazi Germany. It's the same scenario with the manifesto – only a few people in America are desperate enough to feel as if they have no other choice.

  151. MarcFrischhertz

    Hoover101 Try America.  1% owns more than the bottom 80%.  this started with Reagan and has gotten worse every year since.  Do some research on google.  % of wealth of top 1% from 1970 to present.
    ALso, go look at the distribution of wealth in this counrty from 1945-1970.  The post war boom.  The time conservatives look to as the greatest.  Compare it to now.  Also, look at the number of workers who belonged to a union back then compared to now.
    Get your head out of your ass and quit drinking Republican Kool-aid.  do the research yourslf.

  152. jwetterlin

    RobMacDonaldJeffWalters1nomad_newyorkAubreyDurkin why don't you do a little research and find out where most medical advancement happens. then tell me where all those countries who have "better" healtcare than the usa get their drugs.

  153. george_m

    jwetterlin george_m RobMacDonald gburg61 albertagirl For you to be able to compare modern day America to pre-WW2 Germany is ultimately too simplistic. You're failing to consider the multiple other social factors and variables.

  154. jwetterlin

    RobMacDonaldJeffWalters1nomad_newyorkAubreyDurkin we wouldnt have the healtcare we have today without the system we have. Research and Development funds would go to pay for peoples healtcare instead of pioneering new drugs and treatmeants to beat diseases such as cancer, AIDS, heart disease and much much more. simply put we would be using out-of-date medicine today if our system wasnt structured the way it was

  155. george_m

    jwetterlin george_m RobMacDonald gburg61 albertagirl And I hope you agree that the choice associated with healthcare is far smaller than the choice Germans had to make – whether or not they would starve or vote Nazi.

  156. BenEstrada

    this is total bullS***, and that is NOT what socialism offers….Europe has been socialist for a long time and they are very successful, you have to have a balance between capitalism, human drive, and equality

  157. BenEstrada

    RobMacDonald so true…this new healthcare law is ENFORCED capitalism. We need to take out the middle man, between health, and the citizenry…ie (the insurance companies taking all your cash)

  158. RJOGuillory

    MarcFrischhertz…but I think you miss the point…The NFL desires "Parity" so that they have regular seasons that are neck-n-neck among competing teams….they want 9-7 teams that are still in the playoff hunt during the last weekend of the season…because they are trying to drive television revenues…not reward excellent play?

    Can you imagine if the NFL  just lett the Jerry Jones of the league spend any amount they wanted…you would have 4-6 teams with all the wins and everyone else…would be sitting at home…so their goals are different…from an economic perspective….and you observation just goes to prove the Professor's point…eh?

    RJ O'Guillory
    Webster Groves – The Life of an Insane Family

  159. BenEstrada

    the problem with capitalism, communism, socialism and all else, is the sickness of human greed. When we decide to take away the power of money, and replace that with a broader humanist incentive to excel, then only shall we be free of poverty, violence, and corruption.

  160. thecreature8

    This, like the argument against capitalism and socialism, is hinged on the fact that every single student is more concerned with a grade (or "money", in terms of either currency or goods, in a financial/governmental situation), rather than what they should be concerned about. Sure, grades are extremely important to succeeding in an educational system based predominantly on standardized testing, just as money is extremely important in a society who judges the worth of a human being by the size of their bank account, rather than what they can contribute to the world, but that assumes a complete lack of foresight. If the students studied and learned for their own self-improvement and learning's sake (i.e. placed value in the experience of learning, rather than the grade), which is theoretically why any student is in college in the first place, the class would not have failed. Doing so does help those who chose not to study but when the class is over, who has the skills and knowledge to actually go perform well in a related field? The answer to that question is simple. We underpay our teachers and overpay our business executives because we care more about currency and who can obtain it most efficiently than what those people are actually doing to obtain it. When your values, as a society, are misdirected, any system of government, or lack thereof is bound to fail.

  161. shaneayers1

    "Capitalism promotes prosperity by allowing everyone the same opportunity for success."
    This is where your argument fell apart. There is a huge, and compounding, disparity in quality of life based upon starting point in life. Someone born rich is more likely to become rich than someone not born rich, even if they didn't inherit the wealth, due to the impacts of wealth (better educational opportunities, less stress, better diet during cognitive formative years, more connections, access to free or cheap loans, etc). Pointing at the people who made it as being the norm is not only innumerate, it spits in the face of all the people that NECESSARILY must fail in order to make it possible for others to succeed (see 10-year failure rates for entrepreneurs averages across all industries).

    The idea you're pushing is a bad joke and we're all the punch line.
    “Socialism never took root in America because the
    poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily
    embarrassed millionaires. -John Steinbeck

  162. Hoover101

    MarcFrischhertz Your premise is wrong. Each team within the NFL may share profits through TV contracts, merchandise, ticket sales, etc. However, the teams are able to distribute their funds independently and each owner is able to spend the revenue in a way that they see fit to better the teams competitiveness. For instance, general managers sign contracts to players according to their ability, not their need. If the NFL was truly socialist/communist then the starting quarterback would make the same salary as the 4th string quarterback and players would not be allowed to negotiate their contracts.

    Your example is failed and does not apply to private enterprise. Every private business in america is a dictatorship. Does that prove that fascist dictatorships are the superior method in which to lead a society? NO! 

    Please provide me one example where a communist or socialist country was better off after utilizing that form of government! You can't do it because no such society has ever or will ever exist. 

    P.S. If you say China I will prove to you why (economically) it is not a socialist/communist  country.

  163. jwetterlin

    george_mjwetterlinRobMacDonaldgburg61albertagirl i never said that the two societies were even close to the same, i just stated that there are multiple similarities, nothing you said discredits any of my arguement. there were still many similarities were there not?

  164. Blyndfayth

    Many years ago, I was in the country formerly known as Yugoslavia. After witnessing firsthand what real Socialism was and is, I must say I would never want to live in those conditions under a Government that follows that form of governing. The people were miserable, didn't smile, they wore drab and colorless clothing. I'm an American, yes our system is not perfect being that it is manipulated to benefit those in power taking advantage of the people and the world. However it's what we have in place, not that I totally accept it, it is up to the people to make the changes. What do these students know of the world other than what they witness in the news, their social media and in the classroom? The system functions because the people want it to, as long as their needs are being met on some level, not because they will not receive a good grade, or they will not survive.

  165. Hoover101

    BenEstrada  Do you understand what wealth is? It isn't just money. Money is just the physical form of wealth. Ideas are the real wealth that a capitalist and free market society creates. Who benefited most when Thomas Edison created the light bulb? Was it his bank account or was it society?
    Who benefited most when Willis Carrier invented the air conditioner? Was it Willis Carrier's bank account or was it everyone in the lower 48 who has had to endure a hot August heatwave inside their own home?

  166. mhescott

    george_m GordoVipperman Yup….and a 37% increase if you're a male.  Quick, tuck it between your legs and maybe death will pass you by.  This article was written with one agenda in mind.  So how do you think the study was also conducted.  Give me any topic, and I can make the stats say exactly what you want to hear.

  167. SmaugTheTerrible

    jwetterlinRobMacDonaldRosieMatyGregPack Their employer is the government. There's no reason to make the distinction you're making, save to be obstinate to the fact that they are in fact receiving what is the definition of socialized medicine by virtue of their station.

  168. SmaugTheTerrible

    jwetterlinTheRealMrTimMikeGarbizo That's an unfortunate argument you're making; that taking money from people in the form of taxes is in any way different from directly controlling the means of production in relation to the way the resources that have been acquired are dispersed to the public.The money the public gives the government is only ever used to purchase goods and services. That's an end-run around socialism. Unfortunate indeed.

  169. jwetterlin

    SmaugTheTerriblejwetterlinRobMacDonaldRosieMatyGregPack you recieve socialized medicine for being a citizen of a country not being a government employee. when these people lose their jobs they lose their healthcare. just like you or me would lose our healtcare if we lost our jobs so would they.  do people who work for cities and states get socialized medicine according to you? do road workers get socialized medicine?

  170. jwetterlin

    SmaugTheTerriblejwetterlinRobMacDonaldRosieMatyGregPack do a quick search to find out what socialized healtcare means

  171. jwetterlin

    SmaugTheTerriblejwetterlinTheRealMrTimMikeGarbizo can you rephrase that i'm not quite sure what you're trying to get at.

  172. ImrightYourWrong

    BenEstradaEurope? You realize thats not one country under one government and No not all of Europe is socialist…. wow. Whats total bullshit is your lack of knowledge and research. You have the internet, not to speak freely and blast your ignorant opinion all over the place but to learn. Try doing that for now on. Practically all countries of Europe (Germany, France, Norway, Sweden,
    Switzerland, Poland, Italy, Spain, Portugal, and Greece), Australia,
    South Korea, Singapore, Malayasia, and lately even Russia and
    (selectively) China follow capitalism.

  173. ImrightYourWrong

    MarcFrischhertzThe only thing you can relate this to is sports? Go read a book and take a moment from your fantasy team.

  174. george_m

    mhescott george_m GordoVipperman I'm not entirely sure how the whole male thing is relevant? And do you have any evidence to suggest that the article was written with one agenda in mind? Do you have any credibility to support your assertions? If not, you're no better than them.

  175. ImrightYourWrong

    thecreature8 Thats all well and good but eventually and inevitably, all your hard work will seem for nothing. You cant expect just the joy of knowledge in this case to be enough when a student knows they got all the answers right to the test and still receives a failing grade. You know you would say at some point, "its not even worth it". Youd be mad just like the students who tried at first. Youd also not put in the work at your job if you knew you were getting paid the same as the guy who goofs off the whole time. In this economy youd go to your boss and complain and they would get fired. But in a socialist country they wouldnt be. And the main point is that the upper and middle class is getting screwed so that a bunch of low lives can sit on their asses and collect money. Obama thinks if they get a chance they can make something of them selves. Whats really happening is that they take advantage and see no point in actually working for them selves. So lets not get too off topic. Obama needs to go ASAP along with his policies. When it comes down to it, its racism. Call it what you want, but the majority of the people who benefit from this are black. Blacks voted for him because they could get free money and free phones and who knows what else without having to work for it because "they got one of their own in power" And thats exactly how they feel about it. I watch BET during the election and couldnt believe what I was seeing. There are countless videos on YouTube with Blacks saying vote for Obama and you get a free phone. Im not racist, just reporting the facts.

  176. starvinmarvinthehutt

    SmaugTheTerrible  No one needs to fail for others to succeed. Companies that fail because no one wants what they are offering is positive for society. Instead of wasting their time and resources they will now find other ways to be useful to society. Socialism hasnt taken root in america because most americans recognize socialism as tyranny.

  177. starvinmarvinthehutt

    MarcFrischhertz Thats not what happens under capitalism. Historically capitalism has always lesssened the wealth gap. The more regulations we have on human interaction the more the wealth gap grows.

  178. starvinmarvinthehutt

    Spider2769 You are an idiot. Bill gates, Steve Jobs, Warren Buffet, Richard Branson are idiots? Ive met a lot of scientists who have no idea what they are talking about.

  179. Hoover101

    MarcFrischhertz Hoover101 So you are telling me that everyone in this country who is not a part of the 1% of wealthiest Americans has given up? That's a good laugh! 
    I should remind you that the poor in our county are comparatively wealthy when placed beside the true have-nots of the world. Capitalism doesn't imply that for one person to win another person must lose. Our free market has allowed for businesses and societal growth that is symbiotic by both benefiting from each other. 
    I'm not a Republican by the way and I'm not a Democrat. I'm a liberal in the truest sense of the word, believing that economic and personal liberties are our greatest assests as a country.

  180. MarcFrischhertz

    starvinmarvinthehutt MarcFrischhertz That is complete bull.  Give one example.  Go look at the USA from 1875 to 1929.  Very little if any regulation and the wealth gap grew and grew and the lack of regulation led to a great depression.  have you every read a book?

  181. starvinmarvinthehutt

    RobMacDonald Socialized medicine is bad for everyone. Socialism doesnt work. Freedom works.

  182. MarcFrischhertz

    starvinmarvinthehutt MarcFrischhertz Furthermore, after the depression congress passed the Taft Hartley Act ( a regulation) look it up, you might learn something.  This statute stated in effect until 1995 when Newt repealed significant portions of it.  This helped lead to the great recession that we are currently recoverying from.
    Read something other than the ticker on Fox News

  183. starvinmarvinthehutt

    TheRealMrTim Yeah and how are public schools working out? How about the unaccountable police force that brutalizes the population more and more every year. If taxpayers pay for roads and private companies build them, what the hell do we need the government for?

  184. MarcFrischhertz

    The two pictures are of different classroms and have different locations in their meta data.  This story is another republican myth

  185. starvinmarvinthehutt

    ErikGruber Hahaha yeah tell that to Greece and Venezuela. You have no idea what you are talking about.

  186. MarcFrischhertz

    ImrightYourWrong BenEstrada First, many people discuss Europe as an entity even though they know it is not.  Your buddy RUSH does it on a daily basis.  Second, there is something called the European Union, which ties all of European mainland economically.
    Dumb ass

  187. Spider2769

    starvinmarvinthehutt You can lob insults at me all day, that I don't mind. Children lob insults at each other because they have nothing intelligent to say nor a point or argument to make much like yourself. I never mentioned Bill Gates, Steve Jobs or Warren Buffet, you did. And to meet a scientist that doesn't know what he's talking about? Number 1 – He's not a scientist you're just dumb enough to think so. Number 2 there's no such thing as a dumb scientist or one who doesn't know what he's talking about. To imply as such would be a self-contradiction.

  188. MarcFrischhertz

    Hoover101 MarcFrischhertz No, a portion of the other 99% has and that portion will grow until a leader comes along and there is a revolution.

  189. MarcFrischhertz

    Hoover101 MarcFrischhertz Given me an example of the trickle down ecomonics theory you describe?

  190. RJOGuillory

    Hey…Blyndfayth…I worked in Bosnia & Herzegovina for a time back in the day…and into Serbia as well….my memory is shot..due to about 300 seizures I experienced since then…and surviving a drive off a 200 foot cliff..due to my now diagnosed epilepsy…so it is hard to recall all the places I worked…but I think Camp Colt was one place…I  was in the basement of the Olympic Stadium in Sarajevo where they were storing bodies from the war…as it was colder downstairs…..but what I do recall was the resilience of the people …the regard and respect they showed for each other…great folks!…I enjoyed their culture very much…..and…I was also in charge of the US Military's Beer Tent In Hungary….so the memories I do have are all good… …except for the US Government..and their corruption…ha!

    RJ O'Guillory
    Webster Groves – The Life of an Insane Family

  191. MarcFrischhertz

    starvinmarvinthehutt SmaugTheTerrible You are wrong.  The rich could not be rich if others didn't fail, i.e, weren't poor.  Rich is a descriptive word that only has meaning if there are people who are "poor" comparatively speaking for the rich person to be compared to.

  192. ImrightYourWrong

    MarcFrischhertzImrightYourWrongBenEstradaReally? Im the dumbass? WOW OKAY. Rush is not my buddy. What the EU does is make life easier because the countries are as close as states are here in the US. They can use the Euro and not have to mess with conversion rates and trade freely between them selves which also cuts down on conflict. The EU does not make Europe Socialist. Dumbass

  193. JoelStoner

    RobMacDonaldYes Rob i do know that the US is a Constitutional Republic. But so glad that you decided to waste my time, by replying with no facts, just opinion. Your equation of socialism is completely wrong. There is no form of government where everyone is treated equally, there will always be elitist leaders in any form of government.
    While the Native Americans (Indians) had democracies, and socialism, we sure wiped them out.
    Isms are ideologies not forms of government. Socialism, and communism will never work, because you will never be able to get 51% of the people to agree on everything.

  194. JoelStoner

    cadlebeJoelStonerWho's asking you to respond to the article? My request was for people like you who choose to reply to my comments.

  195. Hoover101

    MarcFrischhertz starvinmarvinthehutt The Federal Government is indeed attempting to create fascist (Crony capitalist) state.

  196. JoelStoner

    TomBarnhartBobYoung1cadlebeJoelStonerIt is a common tactic of those not knowing what they are talking about to change the subject so as to appear to know what they are talking about. And or to confuse those who read their comment, so that they may think they know what they are talking about. While the story is most likely fictitious, the point is that some people will only learn that ideologies like socialism, and communism will not work, without experiencing them.

  197. ImrightYourWrong

    DorothyLanierImrightYourWrongthecreature8Oh wow so the "cell hone" thing was Bush's idea??? It was an example and never did I say that Obama created the idea. I dont care what MOST people say. I just know that talking about race especially on the internet can be taken way out of context. Funny thats the one and only trivial comment out of the whole thing you have a "defense" for. How long have you had that one in the holster? Besides, were white people making signs and protesting to vote for Bush because of free cell phones? NO. So who gives a shit who came up with it. Who is manipulating it? Who voted for a president, not based on his policies but on his race? Who voted for him because of the free hand outs? NOT ME. Because I work for what I have.

  198. starvinmarvinthehutt

    MarcFrischhertz starvinmarvinthehutt SmaugTheTerrible You seem to be under the illusion that wealth is actually a giant pie and if one person has more that means others have less. This however is not true. It is not how wealth is created. When two people engage in voluntary exchange, they both benefit from it.

  199. Hoover101

    MarcFrischhertz Hoover101 I am not describing trickle down economics. The main premise of my argument is that society prospers when their is something to be gained through individual efforts. Greed is in fact the primary motivator of a capitalist society. However, the unintentional consequence of this greed has historically been the advancement of society both in terms of created knowledge and wealth. Some minds think that wealth is trickled down, however there are many economists who believe that wealth is spread through transactions that are mutually beneficial to both the business and consumer.

  200. starvinmarvinthehutt

    MarcFrischhertz starvinmarvinthehutt Its hilarious when people like yourself pretend to be well informed by spouting off liberal talking points like they are really intelligent points. The wealth gap between 1875-1929 shrank immensely. More then anyother time in history. Absolute poverty shrank by 40%. The great depression and the great recession were not a product of lack of regulation. They occured because of government involvement in the free market. 2008 happen because of the housing bubble. the housing bubble was a creation of the federal reserve handing out free credit to wall street. Interests rates actually mean something and have a tremendous effect on the economy and how businesses invest. When you artificially keep interest rates low, you have malinvestment and create a bubble. All bubbles eventually burst, and the morons want to blame it on capitalism which was never the cause. Go read a book. There is more to economics then what your keynesian professor in econ 101 taught you.

  201. starvinmarvinthehutt

    MarcFrischhertz Glass-steagal being repealed did not cause the recession. None of the major banks that collapsed would have been regulated under these banking regulations.

  202. starvinmarvinthehutt

    Spider2769 starvinmarvinthehutt hahaha wow. You really think that all scientists know what they are talking about. What about scientists that contradict eachother? You are saying one of them isnt a scientist because he is wrong? You brought up a few billionaires that inherited their wealth and used it as an example of how capitalism isnt about meritocracy. I named several billionaires who made their billions on their own by providing goods and services that people choose to buy. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

  203. Hoover101

    SmaugTheTerrible Hoover101 I agree with your statement that "Someone born rich is more likely to become rich than someone not born rich." 
    You are missing a critical point however, one that the story above is trying to explain. The point is that humans are motivated through incentives. When the incentive is taken away then the human losses the motivation to overachieve. Why would anyone seek to out perform if the reward is unilateral? This is why socialism and communism fail EVERY SINGLE TIME. People that live in communist governments stop trying to perform/produce because there is no reward for performing/producing.

  204. starvinmarvinthehutt

    RobMacDonald You obviously have no understanding of economics, history, or morals. Socialism can only exist through violence and massive amounts of theft at the hands of the state. grow up.

  205. Gaetanod

    Interesting experiment, now how about a test the mirrors free market capitalism. In this test only 1 person will get an A and everyone else will get an F. What will the results be in that case!? Couldn't that have the same demotivation effect!? Sound too extreme? Well we can fix the parameters however we want because this is all hypothetical and if we use extreme examples, as the author of this article has done, then the only comparison is the extreme opposite.

  206. JeffreyEdmonds

    This is an urban Legend it never happened and it is pure propaganda.
    Anyone that calls anything associated with Obama a socialist needs to take some political science classes

  207. SmaugTheTerrible

    Hoover101 SmaugTheTerrible  "The point is that humans are motivated through incentives. When the incentive is taken away then the human looses the motivation to overachieve."
    Some questions for you to ponder. Is the incentive of survival vs death the best motivating force for humanity? is it the most humane? Is it the highest and best use for human time on an individual scale and as a species? Do you see it leading to the sort of future where there is no war and no poverty? Do you believe that incentives cannot or should not be replaced? How do you rationalize the view you may have with the preceedence of organized sports and the olympics as venues for letting out aggression without warfare? Do you have a passion? Is it your job or your hobbie? If it's your job, would you do it for free if you could? If it's your hobbie, how do you rationalize this against the beliefs you've posited? Do you believe people do more effective work when motivated by money or passion? You don't need to answer them here. They're for you to dwell on.

    "Why would anyone seek to out perform if the reward is unilateral?"

    Why do the rewards have to be unilateral? That's not really what socialism states. That's communism, which we've never really seen yet, since by definition Communism is absent the State and Classes (both of which are present in any iteration of "Communism" you can pull from human history so far, primarily due to technological limitations). Also, is having the ability to live (something I find somewhat laughable when we're supposedly guaranteed the right to life and liberty) the only reward worth working for?

    "This is why socialism and communism fail EVERY SINGLE TIME. "

    Are you sure? Are you sure it's not because the means of production have not been sufficiently automated and people in positions of power abuse it, and that no true iteration of communism has ever existed? Are you sure you're sure?

    " People that live in communist governments stop trying to perform/produce because there is no reward for performing/producing."

    If that were true, we would have no art. We would have no literature. We would have no theater. We would have no music. By and large most of the bedrock that western culture was built on was built by people that were starving artists, people that didn't gain notoriety until after their death. Ironically, these pursuits are seen as the most pure of motive, the least tainted by the drive for money or possessions, and the most expressive of the human spirit. Draw your own conclusions about that.

  208. SmaugTheTerrible

    starvinmarvinthehutt MarcFrischhertz SmaugTheTerrible  You said two things that you attempted to pass off as one idea. Let me dissemble this for anyone looking on. 

    "You seem to be under the illusion that wealth is actually a giant pie and if one person has more that means others have less. This however is not true. It is not how wealth is created."

    On the one hand, resources are finite and so are liquid assets. There is a finite pool of money in the world, finite land, finite materials for building, finite manpower, finite electricity or capacity to create electricty at any given moment, etc, so by default if one person acquires more without more being created that someone somewhere has less or none of whatever was acquired. By default this is the case. And that is how wealth is created, but I'll continue that after this. 

    " When two people engage in voluntary exchange, they both benefit from it."

    So, your argument here is actually separate and different from the first thing you said, though you offered no means for someone to be able to tell that just by reading it through. In joining these two notions, you are suggesting that 1) no exchanges happen involuntarily (hostile takeover, coercion [as in employee wage negotiations], etc) 2) that both parties benefit equally from voluntary exchanges [need I begin to discuss real estate?], 3) that wealth is created from voluntary exchanges [slave labor historically, sweat shops and migrant workers today, among other things] and 4) that wealth (a temporally shifting concept) is necessarily created without exchanges (a temporally static concept, an exchange is valuated at the moment of the exchange possibly with projections into the future value]) in which one person can benefit more in the long run than the other, since we must necessarily evaluate the transaction along the timescale of the wealth. That is to say that if the benefits ONLY appear equal at the instance of transaction but yield wildly different results for both parties, it wasn't really an equal transaction and both parties didn't really benefit from it equally (again, real estate). 

    I don't think any of those precepts bear out in analysis of the world. The stock market is pretty much the best example that broaches all of those ideas and is a massive engine for wealth building, aside from business ownership (which, depending on the business, is still arguably in violation of most of the precepts listed).

  209. SmaugTheTerrible

    starvinmarvinthehutt SmaugTheTerrible  "  No one needs to fail for others to succeed. Companies that fail because no one wants what they are offering is positive for society."

    Incorrect. One of several competing brands offering almost identical products can fail and have their market share eaten up despite the fact that people do want what they are offering. For example, a mom and pop level shop can be railroaded out of business by a walmart or can be forced out of business by a monopoly. That's demonstrably negative for society. 

    Socialism CAN be tyranny, and so can capitalism (or rather, corporatism, which is what we get when we let capitalism run too long with too few rules). The difference is that socialism is honest about it's flaws. Capitalism sells people unattainable dreams.

  210. SmaugTheTerrible

    jwetterlin SmaugTheTerrible TheRealMrTim MikeGarbizo What I'm getting at is that what you're advocating for is what you're railing against, but with a middleman that takes an exorbitant cut for the job of "representing" you.

  211. SmaugTheTerrible

    Blyndfayth Do you know what else failed? DiVinci's flying machine. Do you know why? Because he didn't have the technology necessary to make it work. Socialism is only supposed to be a transition phase. It's supposed to lead to a form of Communism where there is no state and there are no classes because technology has eliminated the need for that. Just because they didn't have the technology to make it work at the time, doesn't mean it will fail in the future.

  212. SmaugTheTerrible

    jwetterlin SmaugTheTerrible RobMacDonald RosieMaty GregPack Making the argument that "it's only socialized for a little while" doesn't really work in your favor. If it look s like socialized medicine, and it acts like socialized medicine, then I don't care if you call it medical benefits for civil servants to make yourself feel like it's not socialized medicine on a temporary basis, it still is.

  213. thecreature8

    ImrightYourWrong you make the assumption that everyone sees the world the way you do. I went to college to obtain the knowledge required of me to get a job that affords me the ability to live a life I consider comfortable. Did the particular grades I got matter to me? No. I did the best I could and put what I felt was all I had into learning and bettering myself as a student and hopefully as a person. As far as I'm concerned, grades are relatively useless. If you are working towards a grade, your efforts will seem futile. If you are working towards knowledge, the grades do not matter. If you are working towards a fortune, your example would appear unfair. If you're working under the assumption that the work you're doing is making a difference in the world and those changes are evident, and that is of any value to you, another person's money is no concern of yours. I do not buy into your clear "us vs them" viewpoint. "I'm not racist, I'm just reporting the facts [that come off as disturbingly racist]". I believe the "blacks" you are referring to are the lower and middle class which is probably where most minority citizens find themselves (due in part to years of NOT being afforded equal opportunities in this country), but it would be pretty ignorant to deny the large number of white citizens in the lower/middle class. I'm sure some of them would be happy to get some "free money" and a "free cell phone", if they were gullible enough to believe those things.

  214. Hoover101

    SmaugTheTerrible Blyndfayth  I understand the premise behind creating a communist utopia and agree that it is nice in theory. However, the theory is fatally flawed and disillusioned because people do not function simply off of altruism. 
    I'm an altruistic person. I do nice things for others without any expectation of reciprocity but not even for a second would I conceive of living my life for the sake of someone else. Communism requires that each person perform the role that is given them without the choice of free will. Does this not resemble slavery to the state and slavery to your fellow man? 
    Where there is capitalism there is not necessarily freedom. But where there is freedom there must exist the necessary condition of capitalism.

  215. ts4petrus

    BlyndfaythYugoslavia was no more socialist than the USSR. It was a centralized dictatorship, just as the USSR was a centralized oligarchy. You want to sample experiments in socialism, go to Britain, France, Austalia, New Zealand. 
    By the way, it was socialism that won us our country, if you like: patriots banded together, and pooled their wealth to achieve something that none of them, as an individual, could do alone. Oh, wait, so our military is supported by socialism! So I would like to choose, instead of this bloated military making war the only answer to any problem we face overseas, that we bring them all home, dismantle the 700 foreign military bases, replace them with just what we need for self-defence, and spend that money on world-class medical care for everyone of us. We could probably get a tax refund out of that deal as well.

  216. ShkelzenNokaj

    RJOGuillory MarcFrischhertz  Omg, you just prooved capitalism is wrong "just lett the Jerry Jones of the league spend any amount they wanted…you would have 4-6 teams with all the wins and everyone else…would be sitting at home", which equals to "BIG COORPORATES HAVING THE MONEY, AND THEN BUYING THE NEXT THING, THEN THE NEXT, THEN ALL OF IT EXPONENTIALLY>, those loosing teams would be random people (or low class people called in capitalism who would never stand on their feet if the big fish keeps on biting them)

  217. SmaugTheTerrible

    Hoover101 SmaugTheTerrible Blyndfayth If you associate the words altruism and communism, but not altrusim and capitalism, then you misunderstand both greatly. 

    Did you take the time to go and look over the last reply I gave you? You should do that before proceeding in conversation. It will clarify the conversation somewhat. 

    Well, except for one point I will go ahead and correct you on. Freedom predates capitalism (and all forms of economy). Capitalism is not a component of freedom, it's not a relative of freedom. Those two words shouldn't even live in the same place in your brain. You recall that 200,000 years ago when your anatomically correct ancestors became persistence hunters, they were free, and not one of them got paid for it or had to pay someone else for it, or trade for it, or any other economic activity.

  218. Hoover101

    SmaugTheTerrible Hoover101 Blyndfayth  I understand fully that altruism must be present for the communist utopia to work. 

    I read your last comment but failed to establish any link between Da Vinci's flying machine and the reasons why communism never lead to utopia. Technology isn't the reason that utopia never formed (i.e form of Communism where there is no state and there are no classes). The only reason that communism didn't work was because nobody was willing to work without receiving benefit. 

    You are right though that capitalism and freedom are not the same. China's economy is capitalist and lacks freedom but I still contend that in order for a nation to be free it must posses the necessary condition of capitalism.

    You are also correct that freedom predates capitalism. I wont argue with you there.

  219. starvinmarvinthehutt

    thestumblingblock You are an idiot if you think somalia has no government. Somalias main problems have been caused by government.

  220. starvinmarvinthehutt

    SmaugTheTerrible starvinmarvinthehutt MarcFrischhertz Obviously you have a hard time with reading comprehension. Voluntary exchange always benefits both parties. Coercion (anything the government does) is not voluntary. If someone offers someone a wage and they accept, that is voluntary and both are benefiting, otherwise one party would not agree to it.

  221. starvinmarvinthehutt

    thestumblingblock starvinmarvinthehutt BenEstrada
    he is implying we need government force for these things. In reality we dont need to point guns at each other for people to get healthcare

  222. Hoover101

    starvinmarvinthehutt SmaugTheTerrible MarcFrischhertz 

    He's right Smaug The Terrible. You can try to convolute ideas but the fact is that people generally do not make exchanges in a capitalist system unless both parties benefit from the exchange. The benefits do not necessarily need to be equal for them to be desirable.    

    I question your logic and thought process on this issue and truly wonder if you understand the loss of self worth that accompanies communism.

  223. SmaugTheTerrible

    starvinmarvinthehutt SmaugTheTerrible MarcFrischhertz Repeating yourself does not make you correct. There are many reasons why people take deals, and valuation is a science unto itself. Just writing off decades of social science (not that I would expect you to be familiar with such gems as risk aversion, loss aversion, prospect theory or other cognitive biases that cause humans to misweigh options) is incredibly intellectually dishonest.

  224. SmaugTheTerrible

    Hoover101 starvinmarvinthehutt SmaugTheTerrible MarcFrischhertz  You have spent a lot of time responding to all of my comments.. except the ones where I dissembled your original logic. That is to say that you seem to be extraordinarily vocal everyone except where I was talking to you. Why is that? 

    Anyway, convoluting ideas? Is that what we call science now? It's complex, therefore he must be trying to confuse us? is that the thinking here? If these systems were so simple, they would be a lot easier to correct when they go astray and they would inherently be a lot less problematic., They aren't simple, and not only because human interaction isn't simple (too much of me to ask that you have some background in game theory before coming to a conversation about economics?) but also because we've built up complex bureaucratic and legislative systems around an already complex system of interaction. The fact is that "benefit" is a soft analysis. Something that alleviates an emotion, "benefits" us. It doesn't matter if the person selling you the solution created the emotional problem to begin with in such a shallow analysis as yours and starvinmarvinthehutt's. Nor would it matter that such a benefit (a return to the baseline or original reference point) would be worthless the instant it was gained, while the value of whatever they traded away for it would possibly persist or grow. Saying that people benefit from exchanges in the system assumes rational choosers (which, again, gonna go out on a limb and say you know very little cognitive science if you think the rational chooser model applies, given that it's been debunked repeatedly) and assumes informed decisions. 
    You can question my logic all you want. Just don't call my commentary convoluted when it is sufficiently complex to meet the explanatory power requirements for the topic. Occam's razor works both ways, friend. 

    " if you understand the loss of self worth that accompanies communism."

    No, I don't understand that at all. Tell me, what special component of being a wage slave from 9-5 is it that imbues in each of us an acute sense of self worth that being a part of a communist or socialist system wouldn't.

  225. SmaugTheTerrible

    Hoover101 SmaugTheTerrible Blyndfayth  

    " I understand fully that altruism must be present for the communist utopia to work. "

    BUZZZ! Incorrect. This is also why you did not understand my abstraction about divinci. For the record I was referring to my earier comment to you, not in the reply stack for blyndfayth.

  226. FreeJay

    JeffreyEdmonds – Anyone who doesn't understand that socialism has always been a way for the power-hungry to pretend they care about the poor in order to take control needs to take more history classes.

    Of course Obama's a socialist, just like every other socialist, once he takes power, all the promises about helping the poor and downtrodden evaporate. Next you'll be telling us that Stalin wasn't really a communist, because he didn't really help anybody either. Socialism was never about helping the poor, how many examples of socialism failing do we need to have before you gullible liberals realize that?

  227. jasonstuartperry

    I wonder why there are no names associated with this bullshit post. I wonder if the author of this bullshit post is grateful for the freedom he/she enjoys to be able to scrawl bullshit posts of this sort. Some of you are just dumb enough to want to proliferate this type of bullshit. Well carry on retards – you have a right to free speech as well I suppose.

  228. jasonstuartperry

    CynthiaPalumboDo you actually think this is real? If so, I have a bridge I would like to sell you.

  229. FreeJay

    ts4petrus – Socialism as an economic system is defined by state ownership and control of the means of production. Calling the colonial revolution "socialist" just because people cooperate together is truly the depths of stupidity and dishonesty. You have no clue what you are talking about. 

    I can't believe how many self-proclaimed "socialists" have never even read Marx and make ignorant comments like, "The post office is socialism!"

  230. ErikGruber

    ImrightYourWrong MarcFrischhertz BenEstrada Yes, but most of European countries would be considered socialist, namely most of the ones you mentioned.

  231. Spazzin

    Hoover101 Bingo! Capitalism provides "freedom" to be anything you want to be. It however does not guarantee that you will be successful. The problem is that there are too many that aren't willing to put in the effort it takes to succeed. They are much more interested in voting for politicians that will confiscate others wealth for their gain.

  232. aWorldQuiteMad

    GaetanodI think you've confused 'free market capitalism', which has served the US well for most of its history with 'crony capitalism'. If you think that socialism or communism is better, then move to N. Korea, or Cuba, or any of the other countries that spout that ridiculous crap. Sure that system of governance looks real good on paper, but in practice has always been an utter failure. So many people have no understanding of business, history, political theory, economics, etc, and they get to run their mouths on the internet.

  233. SeanRembach

    FreeJay although i agree with what your saying there is a much greater arguement as to why stalin was not a communist. regardless all american politicians have been socialists since fdr.

  234. aWorldQuiteMad

    thecreature8IF wishes were horses, then beggars would ride. IF a bull frog had wings, it wouldn't bump it's arse. IF the dog hadn't stopped to take a whiz… well you get the idea. The idea that we can create a utopia where everyone is equal has, every time, without exception, where it managed to be carried out (usually at the point of a sword or the barrel of a gun) wound up being a dictatorship where a small group of people are in charge and everyone else is equal, equal in poverty and oppression. EVERY TIME. You can posit 'what if' questions all day long, but you'd make better money delivering pizzas and putting the earnings into a stable mutual fund with a long track record. lolololol

  235. aWorldQuiteMad

    ErikGruberImrightYourWrongMarcFrischhertzBenEstradaActually they are only partially socialist. The government owns certain things, like health care (though there is a private system if you can pay for it), the rail system, etc. But they are not socialist completely. You can still own a private business in those countries, but why would you want to? The tax rates if you make much money are phenomenal. They are confiscatory after a certain point, in which case why would anyone want to bother? And that's why black markets thrive there. They estimate that Italy has a black market that is equivalent to their GDP.

    At any rate, I believe that many here have mistaken 'welfare state' for 'socialism' because in classical socialism, the worker gets what they need. If you don't work, you don't get anything, not food, nothing! Read some of the writings from the late 19th and early 20th century. Kropotkin and many other socialist/communist writers referred to people who didn't work as leeches. Nothing but uneducated morons on the internet nowadays, acting like they know something because they read a wikipedia article on it. Sheesh.

  236. MatthewMcKnight

    example of "socialism" displays straw man and false comparison fallacies. Many high
    school students don't "want" to be there, meaning it isn't an accurate
    display of socialism. Under a socialized government, people pursue
    careers that appeal to their innate talents
    and lead to self-actualization (people pick majors/careers they enjoy
    and that best suits them). Under the current system, only a handful of
    professions are considered "safe" and well paying, so you have a lot of
    people picking careers that do not reflect their talents. Not only does
    the individual suffer an unhappy existence (or unhappy "career life",
    at least) under this model, but society also misses out on numerous
    just had a wonderful experience with socialism in one of my graduate
    courses. Because the students in my class are passionate about the
    subject they are studying and are all highly motivated (they wouldn't
    have been accepted into the program if they weren't), everyone works
    hard which makes group projects similar to the one mentioned in the
    pseudo example you shared beneficial and enriching.
    Also, to call Obama a socialist is to display a fundamental misunderstanding of socialism.

  237. aWorldQuiteMad

    Methinks that a few of the posters on this thread have confused 'socialism' and 'communism' with 'welfare state.' But hey, how could they not? They haven't read any history (or much of anything else), so all they know is some fictionalized idea, that some yahoo on the internet told them about what socialism or communism "really is", and it seeped into their little brains, so deprived of critical thinking skills.  If they had read some history, they'd know that socialism and communism makes the masses equal, equal in poverty, while a few ruling entities wind up filthy rich. If you doubt this, just look at N. Korea, the Soviet Union, eastern Europe in the 1960s/70s, etc etc ad infinitum. Also, Europe is not socialist. They have socialized medicine, but that is not socialism. The State does not own all of the businesses, they just tax anyone who does well a lot so they can have socialized programs. When all of your hard earned income goes to taxes, that takes a bit of the wind out of your sails, and you wonder why you should work so hard, when your money is going to those who don't work. Again, see: Welfare State. The classical socialists/communists like Marx and Kropotkin believed that if you worked, you got what you *needed* (not necessarily what you wanted). Kropotkin called people who didn't work "leeches". That's not very PC now is it? LOL You might want to read up on what you think you believe in.

    Also, see: parable. This story is obviously made up. That doesn't make it any less valid.

    And good luck with your little communist utopian ideas, there ain't enough luck in the world for those who wait around for other people to solve their problems, or who blame other people for said problems. You can take the hand you were dealt and play it, or you can sit around and moan and whine about it. If you wait around for the government (or other people) to fix your life, your life will be a failure.

  238. MatthewMcKnight

    FreeJayJeffreyEdmondsStalin was a Stalinist, not a Communist.  I'm sort of shocked you don't seem to understand the difference.

  239. nomad_newyork

    jwetterlin RobMacDonald JeffWalters1 nomad_newyork AubreyDurkin Are you suggesting that there are no pharmaceuticals coming out of France, England or even out of China? You're right, I should go google China pharmaceutical.

  240. nomad_newyork

    jwetterlin RobMacDonald JeffWalters1 nomad_newyork AubreyDurkin So, countries like Cuba & China don't put any money into R&D and pay for people healthcare instead, right? Do you even bother to research what you write or do you just pull it out of your behind? I mean, I'm not a communist or a socialist but I do believe in the truth.

  241. CJAlexander

    The actual economic and philosophical principle that is being applied here is called Tragedy of the Commons, but I hardly think Socrates was against communism. You guys are mag apple juice out of oranges here!

  242. RalphTetta

    JoeMarolda davemanvell The United States of America is a Democratically elected Constitutional Republic.  It's both.

  243. slowhoa

    COvskiergolfer JeffreyEdmonds You knew socialism and communist come from the same radical resource, it is Karl Marx and Lenin…communist keen to promise, but after taken power, they turn the face and do the other way. In China, Vietnam, when communist needed to get the support, they promised anything, then land owner, rich people contributed money, food…but after communist got government, they launched the landlord reform, and killed all…Obama is as the same, he promised anything, even though he will do the best for economy. His believers got lost hope after more than 5 years in power…

  244. slowhoa

    MatthewMcKnight FreeJay JeffreyEdmonds You don't know and lack knowledge about communist. Karl Marx devised the communist theory and Lenin who transformed Karl Marx into the society, that calls" socialism". If you want to know, please read my first book:" The dark journey: inside the reeducation camps of Vietcong" published in New York, 2010. I spent 30 years to learn English myself and hunt the document…

  245. slowhoa

    ErikGruber slowhoa COvskiergolfer JeffreyEdmonds I am non English Speaking, so English is not my native language. I am ex-Lieut of ARVN, after Saigon lost, I was among 800,000 POW, but 165,000 killed, I am survivor. During the period in re-education camps, I saw Vietcong had the bad treat to prisoners, so I promised myself:" If survival, I will write a book". Obviously, I told my mother in a visit about my risky plan ( English condemned and banned strictly as counter-revolution language", if they knew I learn it, I would be killed or tortured)…My mother torn off a pocket dictionary by pieces then used the rice glue stuck as newspaper sheets, she wrapped food and sent to jail ( every 3 months). I ate food and learned quiet the word by word. I had no allow to read, but I wrote into the air, my inmates confirmed I was mad. After 5 years, the pocket dictionary done. In 198I, I was released by illness. 1982 I escaped from Vietnam and 1983, I resettled anew life in Australia. I spent the other 25 years for self learning English, not school, and hunted the document. I had three books published: The dark journey, good evening Vietnam and from laborer to author. I have learnt English myself and learnt from the mistake…there is no one perfect. I am sorry, English is not my language…thank for your asking.( You may read my books and know how my life)

  246. Robertocarlosaprea

    Este experimento es una estupidez, la nota no es un premio al esfuerzo del estudiante, es la evaluacion para certificar si esta en condiciones de ejercer su profesion. Si el estado se encargara de hacer la educacion gratuita eso no tendria por que ir en desmedro de la calidad de la misma y el costo que la sociedad asumiria seria devuelto por mayor cantidad de profesionales a mas bajo precio. Imaginen por ejemplo como bajaria el costo de la salud si se duplicara o triplicara la cantidad de medicos.

  247. ChristopherKoda

    1:  any of various economic and political theories advocating
    collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of
    production and distribution of goods
    2a:  a
    system of or group living in which there is no private property
    b:  a
    system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and
    controlled bythe state
    3:  a stage of society in theory transitional between… and… and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay
    according to work done 
    So according to Wikipedia you are wrong.  But Communist like you have no clue.

  248. NYCMOM

    WRONG!!!!  WE Are not a Democratic Nation.  We are a Representative (Constitutional) 
    What moron social studies/history teacher taught you we are a Democratic nation?
    Back to elementary school for you Dave!

  249. thecreature8

    aWorldQuiteMad The difference between the "what if" statements I made and that nonsense is my statements are not necessarily impossible. The situations you are using as examples, which I agree, consume every documented example of an attempt at a "utopian" society, were thwarted by greed, which I was hoping people would think about as a result of the "what ifs", rather than frog butts. Do I honestly think that kind of society is possible on a large scale? Not currently, but I do think it can work on a smaller scale with a group of like-minded individuals who value communal wellness over wealth. Then again, I do not believe the self-governing principals of capitalism have proven themselves incredibly effective either. Replace the small group of people running a dictatorship in your example with the top 1% in the United States and you have the same situation. History repeats itself when people fail to see what caused problems in the. Maybe it's more important to me to post "what if" questions all day long and try to make a single person think about something in another light than make money.

  250. NickMatherne

    NYCMOM davemanvell  Yes we are a republic, but that doesn't prevent us from labeling ourselves as the "Arsenal of Democracy."  America decided a long time ago that we thought we would sound better if we called ourselves a Democracy and therefore at least in the context of the United States, calling our nation a Democracy is a logical statement that reflects current trends and perceptions about the way in which our government functions.  It is entirely unfair of you to make fun of that poster because he makes the same comment that almost everyone in our nation claims just because it is technically incorrect.   Another poster chose to point out that Socialism is an economic strategy and that it was not the same as a governmental style.  Why did you feel the need to harp on a detail and make someone feel bad rather than making a point relevant to the actual discussion at hand.  I am obviously following your comment more than the actual discussion by responding to your comment, but I honestly feel that what you did is wrong and is entirely belittling to Dave and counterproductive to discussion.

  251. ChristopherKoda

    JeffreyEdmondsNo it you who need to take a political science class.  But look up Obama's words "Redistribution of wealth", "economic equality", they read straight out of Karl Marx, Communist Manifesto.

  252. jrcoffee62

    If the state can tax a business, and has he authority to determine at what rate to tax it, then the state owns the business, and the Business Owner owns the ILLUSION of ownership.

  253. thephantompress

    MatthewMcKnight do you always just spit forth terms learned in English 101 to make yourself feel like you know what your talking about. Are you really expecting us to believe your career picking argument is the cornerstone of why socialism works. If you really are such a brainiac why don't you site an actual case example or haven't you learned how to look up scholarly examples yet.

  254. StevenMichaelSajor

    So we've discovered that the people, with the means to help their
    fellow man, fail to find justification when they're not being rewarded? 
    We're never going to get to the Star Trek age unless it's sponsored by
    Coca Cola and manned by martian immigrants.  Socialism has no chance of
    sustaining itself especially when the need to punish different ideas is
    eager and looming.  The reason for the great expanse between wealthy and
    poor is to make sure that everyone can't afford a mansion stronghold
    and competitive armories.  One day we'll escape the dark age of fake
    money and make examples of those who impeded progress…one day

  255. SmaugTheTerrible

    StevenMichaelSajor  That has always been my argument. We're never going to make it to star trek this way.Strangely enough, I think the star trek universe has money, but the side of the federation we're exposed to is socialist in nature or appears to be.

  256. JasonShoup

    Yeah, I can think of a good reason not to share it: this story seems to be bogus.  If it's real, why doesn't the journalist cite the name of the professor or the college?  Sure, you might argue it's a parable, but then again, parables don't really belong on website whose masthead says it's dedicated to "assassinating liberal lies with documented facts."

  257. DanORants

    RalphTetta No, it's not.  Part of being a Constitutional Republic means we elect our representatives through a democratic process.  Doing this, by no way, makes us a Democracy.

  258. ErikGruber

    DanORants RalphTetta Laws are made by and voted by representatives ot individuals, therefore it's technically a republic

  259. ErikGruber

    JasonShoup That seems to the general consensus here. Total made-up crap, or at least I hope so since this economics professor didn't realize he was demonstrating communism, as oppose to socialism.

  260. RyanCHass

    The difference here is work pays off in the original system if you study and work hard you get a better grade, while in life a person depending on where he was born on the socio-economic scale can work three jobs and still have to choose which bill to pay that month. People lose incentive to work when work means nothing.

  261. JasonShoup

    RyanCHass Actually, generally you get good grades in a class if you get good grades on its homework & tests.  You don't necessarily have to study or work hard; cheating would also get you to the same place, wouldn't it?  Likewise, sometimes in real life, hard work doesn't really pay off or guarantee results.  It's a nice comforting myth to believe in, though.

  262. JasonShoup

    jwetterlin RobMacDonald RosieMaty GregPack Not so much as "exempt" as "it's illegal for them to enroll in it."  Are you "exempt" from murdering people?

  263. JasonShoup

    This earlier comment is the best yet: " If you showed the flip side of this argument and had the class's grades represent our current economic system, it would look like this: Let's say there are 20 people in the class, and a total of 2000 points available. (100 points per student) 1 student (the top 10%) gets 70% percent of the points, or 1400 points. He/she finishes the class with a 1400% in the class, or an A. This leaves 19 students with 600 points available. So the best each of these students could get in the class at this point would be a 1.6%, or F's. I'm guessing most you commenters would relate to the 19 kids, but for some reason many of you feel the need to argue on behalf of the A student.
    For all of you touting your vast historical and economic knowledge base, you should know that before the the great depression economic inequality was at an unsustainable level. This was caused in large part by unregulated capitalism. Again we see economic inequality is rising to dangerously high levels. (to high for a healthy economy) "

    Supporters of this article:  what would you if you were in a class where 1 person was able to pass, at the expense of everybody's else's failure?

    Sure, my question is a hypothetical situation, but so is the original article.

  264. JeanLucUlmer

    JasonShoup  The problem with your bout here is that it is falsely based on satire. This isn't your fault, you've been lead to believe this for a long time, and it's kind of hard to change that opinion. The problem was and has never been unregulated capitalism, our problem has always been government dipping into and aiding corporations with tax payer dollars (subsidies.) The government in every occasion has been in the game of helping those "too big too fail." That is not capitalism, it is cronyism. It is somewhat annoying for me to explain that to people who very loosely know about free market economics. The wealth marginalization that you're talking about has come with the devaluation of our currency, as well as subsidization in arbitrary market areas.

  265. JeanLucUlmer

    JasonShoup RyanCHass Cheating would not get you in the same place, as good grades don't guarantee you wealth. What you learn most from college is how to learn. The stage of college is usually for young adults seeking a specific field, or at least an education in a specific field; however, the transformation that happens to a student during that time is vast. If a student spends his time cheating, and not gaining integral values from school, he/she will be less likely to find success.

  266. JasonShoup

    JeanLucUlmer Isn't this original article also satire?  (or a parable, at best?)  Do you really have no objection to its example?  By the way, how do you know what I've been 'lead to believe'?  Do you know me that well just from merely reading a couple of sentences I wrote?  Or from the sentences I didn't even write, but that I copied & pasted & quoted from another commenter?  If so, I'm impressed.

    I probably shouldn't have pasted that 2nd paragraph there, but I do think the first paragraph is interesting.

    I have a conflicted view on the distribution of wealth in this country.  People like Bill Gates or Warren Buffet have wealth equivalent to a huge percentage of their countrymen, but I believe they earned it (fairly, more or less) and I can't begrudge them for their success.  But on the other hand, to have so much wealth concentrated in the hands of so few is probably not a good thing for society at large.

    I've always been struck at the demonization of socialist ideas and countries, particularly when many countries of that persuasion seem to lead the world when it comes to 'quality of living' scores.

  267. JasonShoup

    JeanLucUlmer JasonShoup RyanCHass " Learning how to learn" is still not the same as studying or working hard.

  268. ChristopherKoda

    ErikGruberJasonShoupBut the definition of Socialism puts it as a step towards communism. 
    1:  any of various economic and political theories advocating
    collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of
    production and distribution of goods
    2a:  a
    system of or group living in which there is no private property
    b:  a
    system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and
    controlled bythe state
    3:  a stage of society in theory transitional between… and… and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay
    according to work done

  269. JasonShoup

    RyanCHass "When works means nothing".  Maybe part of this issue is doing something purely for money, instead of really wanting to do something for its own merit, or for personal achievement, or for pride.  Sure, it's naive to expect somebody to not care at all about money, but if that's your primary or majority reason to work, I think that's a sad approach. 

    I've been reading that Steve Jobs bio lately and was struck by how he didn't seem to care about money much; for him, it was always about making something cool or beautiful.  Money was the fruit of that labor, but not his motivation.  What if you were motivated in your work and life by something other than money?

      I've known a lot of rich people who were solely focused on money and making more of it, and most of them were awful, awful people who added very little to mankind.  You want to talk about the homeless or welfare recipients being leeches on the world? Go for it, but don't forgot that rich people might be just as bad in their own way.

  270. ChristopherKoda

    JasonShoupChristopherKodaErikGruberThe point being that those who profess to be socialist are really just one step away from communist.  And we have seen what communist and their all being equal gets you.

  271. ShawnSuiters

    I think the point has been missed by a few, lets back up the educated comments for a second and not think. Its simple, taking from some and giving to all leaves for NO incentives to continue to do great things in America. What incentive would one have to invent new software, medical equipment and so on? Because they love it, Im not sure that is right. I love my job but I like the money too. It provides for my family whom I wirk very hard to ensure they have some of the finer things in life.
    But what some are saying is that everyone can have an iPad or xbox or whatever? I throw the bullshit flag on that one. If you have no incentive to thrive then there will be no iPad for everyone. Lets face it (not saying there are not descent people) but people are assholes from whom most will do little as possible in their lives. Just look at our society shifting from the hard back-breaking labor in the early to mid 1900's until today. Its pathetic we have eveolved to a state that I believe is our massive downfall taking the same spiriling journey as Greece, Rome and many other great nations of the past……..

  272. ErikGruber

    ChristopherKoda ErikGruber JasonShoup Be that as it may. Call a Spade a Spade. What's being described is not socialism, which is misleading for those who don't already know the difference.

  273. jjbb88

    I call BS.  A prof would get fired for failing everyone.  

    It also sounds like he used an incorrect grading scale.  If it were a standard bell curve, or a normalized distribution, there would have to be enough students in the passing range to bring the median to passing or higher.  

    Also econ is easy.  I aced that crap without studying.

  274. HarryCrew07

    There are a lot of good points made in this article, However, this article completely misses one large section of the economy. The economy only functions the way it does because of the working poor. There are many people who work 50+ hours a week at jobs that are necessary and undervalued/underpaid.  If society could be structured in a way that does not necessitate taking away what the wealthy have made, but instead values and rewards the real work that all citizens do, I think we would move towards a society that works better for everyone.  Unfortunately, some of the most wealthy are only there on the backs of the working poor, whose labor is not valued yet today.  Each piece of the puzzle of our society must be valued in a way that provides a real living wage.

  275. jjbb88

    RyanCHass Honestly from what I've observed the strict grading system encourages cheating, not hard work.  Although I will yield that if students in my classes tried as hard on their studies as they did on cheating, they would probably get an A anyways.

  276. ErikGruber

    ChristopherKoda JasonShoup ErikGruber That's like saying being Christian is one step way from being in the KKK.

  277. joeroppolo

    The fallacy with Jason's arguement, with all due respect to Jason, is that wealth is not a finite thing.  It can indeed multiply as we have seen through the growth in economies over many centuries.  In the free enterprise system, wealth can truly be created.  So, to assume that one must take from another to achieve wealth or that there is only a limited amount to go around is simply incorrect. 
    Thus, in your scenario, there are actually an unlimited number of A's to go around if the people are willing to work for them.  In the free enterprise system, this means creating or becoming somehting of value to others.

  278. V7Theory

    JasonShoup First, you've incorrectly identified the flip side. The flip side is what was already happening, each student earned what they worked for. What you've suggested is the garbage you ate up right out of the media:that money is an object and that there is a finite amount of wealth (which means it can't be created or destroyed, only moved around). That is a silly and juvenile argument, which would be solved by simply printing more money if it were true. One thing you've got to get through your head is that money is (roughly) just a representation of the importance of goods and products in society – it's what we agree it is. Everyone could be far more OR far less wealthy (have more/less things and a better/worse standard of living) and the balance of money could stay the exact same, so to say that one person has to take from another to achieve wealth is silly. If I move to the desert and build a house out of dirt, can you say that I took that dirt house from everyone who didn't have it? Can you say that every time I record a song or carve an animal out of a branch that I took that from someone? And when I provide services like teaching martial arts or ballet can you say that I'm taking money from people and that they aren't willingly giving it up? Do you see how the media has simplified your view of currency quite significantly?

  279. SmaugTheTerrible

    JeanLucUlmer JasonShoup Was the problem government when corporations formed monopolies and ran entire industries out of business, only to capitalize on their new found power and raise prices with the full knowledge that there was no alternative source for their goods? Was the problem the government when children lost arms climbing in heavy machinery during the industrial revolution? Was the problem the government when corporations would dump toxic waste in local freshwater, laying waste to ecosystems, or into the ocean (let's talk about BP, shall we?)? Was the problem the government when people colluded to fix prices? Was the problem the government when people participated in, and cashed in on, insider trading? Let me know the moment when the government became the problem.

  280. JasonShoup

    "Incentive" does not always equate into "money."  

    Sure, money can be a big motivator, but tell me: if you do anything, do you only do it because you were paid to? 

    No?  Didn't think so.

    Do you know ANYBODY like that?  (Actually, I do know a few people like that, and they're awful, soulless monsters whom I wouldn't save if I saw them drowning in a lake- even if they paid me to- but that's another story). 

    If "incentive" was only about money, imagine the kind of society we'd live in, where people would do nothing if it didn't result in getting money.  Would you raise a family, or do something for your kids… if they didn't pay you for your services?  Would you help a neighbor if there wasn't something in it on the back end?   Why would you recycle your trash, if there's nobody paying you to do it?

     If we were only out for money, wouldn't we all be pursuing high-paid jobs, regardless of the pleasure we take in the work, the role we play, or the things we create?

    And ask yourself:  would you rather live in that "downward spiraling society" where people aren't incentivized primarily by money, and instead in one where other incentives take are more important?

  281. SmaugTheTerrible

    V7Theory JasonShoup Except that isn't a true representation of our current economic system. People aren't born at the same starting point and aren't availed the same opportunities. By default, someone whose family has an economic advantage is more likely to gain advantages early in life that have a non-linear and compounded impact on their fiscal success in life. Suggesting that a class, with its specific motiviations, it's double bounded reward system, and completely synthetic (and controlled) system of interaction to a free market is not only incorrect, but it makes an informed individual wonder how you could ever conceive of it as being such. 

    You then go on to speak about goods and services, of which there are a finite amount, as though it isn't a zero sum game. Tell me, do you think real estate is a zero sum game? Because until they begin construction of floating island cities (China's are in production. You can also google floating concrete to educate yourself.) it is. There is a finite amount and there are only two ways of acquiring it. You get it from someone that knows they own the land or you get it from someone that doesn't (ie aborigines in whatever unclaimed land remains on the planet). There is a finite amount of sulfur currently on the market. There is a finite amount of wood currently on the market, and even if you take into account the lumber industry, there is a finite amount being currently processed and a finite amount being currently grown and of course, a finite maximum amount of possible wood that can be grown at any given time. Let's talk some more about your analysis of this lack of a zero sum game though. Does it apply to businesses? Are there an infinite amount of consumers? Is there an infinite market share for two businesses occupying the same industry niche? Or is it the case that typically one of several competitors fails or is purchased by the superior brand in their industry? Didn't snapchat just turn down a $3B deal offered by facebook to purchase them? Hmmmm. Curious. 

    By the way, it's intellectually dishonest to conflate a strawman and the original point by purposefully using loaded language like "take".

  282. JasonShoup

    SmaugTheTerrible JeanLucUlmer JasonShoup No, the problem was/ is greedy people.  I don't think that will change anytime soon.

  283. haroldburbank

    nonsense.  china, russia, and all of the western industrial world but the usa have national health care. 
    all of the nations still exist.  the prof based the experiment on so may false and misleading assumptions, economic and otherwise, the class was a farce.  nations are not college classes.  a government CAN compel, take, own, and transfer wealth almost at will.  college students cannot re grades.  western nations are mixed economies, with private and public wealth, managed differently for different goals.  the wrongs assumed in the experiment are too numerous to mention here.  and, who is to say a different class of utopian students would note study and perform different/altruistically.

  284. SmaugTheTerrible

    ShawnSuiters Never played a team sport before? The desire to succeed isn't linked only to personal incentive.

  285. CJAlexander

    Read "The Republic" by Socrates and you ail better understand what communism is and is not. To say that it does not work because the people who have tried in the past all had hidden agendas is dumb. It is like saying no one should have guns since someone robbed a store once.

  286. ErikGruber

    cj_pomerantz ErikGruber thephantompress Nah, if you're going to condescend you deserve to be scrutinized.

  287. JeffWalters1

    RyanCHass If someone is working three jobs and still can't pay their bills it is A) a case of total ignorance of how to manage money, or B) they are trying to live way above their means. If you make $25,000 a year you shouldn't try to buy a $200,000 home or drive a BMW. Buy a $50,000 dollar home and drive a dependable used car. I don't feel sorry for people who don't have a clue about money management or how to live with what you have.

  288. cj_pomerantz

    ChristopherKoda JasonShoup ErikGruber To further pound home Erik's point:
    Anyone who is pro life is one step away from shooting an abortion doctor.
    Anyone who is a muslim is mere moments from flying a plane into a building.
    Anyone who has a drink is one sip away from alcoholism.

  289. cj_pomerantz

    JeffWalters1 RyanCHass And where do you suggest they find this $50K home?  And work at any of their three jobs?

  290. SmaugTheTerrible

    joeroppolo I'm surprised anyone can read anything over that racket? What is that? Oh, it's the sound of the next bust in the cycle further widening the gap between the rich and the poor and putting the middle class in poverty conditions. 

    Tell me more about how the wealthy do not become wealthy (exclusively or otherwise) by taking money from others. While I wait, I'll just go to McDonald's for some food that someone who must necessarily earn the wages they pay them has to make for the owner's of the franchise to succeed.

  291. JeffWalters1

    CJAlexander Communism never has and never will work in this World because all of Mankind is corrupted by sin. Some are more evil than others, but even those who believe and follow Christ are still far from perfect. That is why trying to make all property communal and distribute it to cover everyone's needs always has and always will fail. To make the system work on a large scale, you must appoint leaders, whether it is one dictator or a committee. Their corruption always will cause them to covet the best for themselves and they will skim it or outright steal it. The farmers who produce food and the workers who produce goods will always fall prey to discouragement and apathy when they see the bounty passing thru their hands every day, but they only get scraps and rags to cover their needs. Usually attempts at Communist Government result in a Dictatorship, because the meanest dog always ends up on top of the pile. In the 20th Century, Communism (whether practiced in its pure form or not) resulted in the deaths of approximately 80 million people, through wars, starvation thru the mismanagement of the economy and agriculture, political purges, nuclear disasters through mismanagement or sheer indifference, genocides and so on and so forth. I suppose that Capitalism has killed some people also, but the number is a drop in the bucket compared to Communist/Socialist Governments.

  292. TomAdkins

    CJAlexanderJeffWalters is wrong. Communism fails because even the most principled and pious person understands there is no reason to work if his money is stolen at the end of the day, and given to someone who doesn't work.
    Any socialism of any kind fails for this reason. The greater the redistributive theft, the less incentive to produce.

  293. Bigbird4901

    I had a class where everyone failed too, it was just an absolutely terrible teacher. The tests were nonsensical. The class started with 50 people and ended with 4, we all got F's Unbelievable. Was this on the students or the teacher?  By the way, did the tests get harder during the quarter?

  294. TomAdkins

    Anyone with a brain in their head will cease to
    work when their money is stolen and given to someone who doesn't work.
    The greater the redistributive theft, the less incentive to work.That's why France, which is very socialist, produces marginally, and North Korea, which is 100% communist, doesn't even produce enough food to feed itself…yet Hong Kong, with utterly no natural resources, has one of the highest standards of living in the world.
    Socialism is a vile concept based upon the greatest petty human emotion: Jealousy. And anyone who defend redistribution of any kind is either incredibly naive, or equally vile.

  295. hanchueh

    TomAdkins Funny then how is socialist China having a 7.8% economic growth? Also Ireland has the highest Quality-of-life score in the world, and they achieve it with a socialist welfare system.
    Socialism as defined no longer exists in the first world countries. Many countries have social welfare which actively helps the country with stability and growth. That is now being called by the right wing in the US as socialism, but it really isn't.

  296. KeithDavidson

    hanchuehTomAdkins pulled that 7.8% number out of your ass. China is in deep trouble as has been proven by global economists who have revealed that China has been fudging their GDP numbers. The only things that have saved China to this point is because they have lent a boatload of money, from which they are getting paid back with crazy interest from many countries, including America where your precious socialism, as it has done everywhere else, is failing miserably. Also, China has introduced many Western type free-market principles into their economy and this is the reason they have any growth at all. That's why you can find KFC, Burger King and privately owned shoe stores, book stores and tailors and such in China. Has it ever occurred to you that if you have to lie and manipulate and distort the facts to advance your cause, then maybe your cause sucks? Probably not.

  297. TomAdkins

    hanchuehTomAdkinsChina is seeing economic growth precisely because they are becoming more capitalist. What a dopey question.

  298. KeithBarber1

    Does it bother anyone that this claim of "assassinating liberal lies with documented facts" is for a story that is completely fabricated BS?

    Who is the liar?  Seriously, one of the many tip offs to anyone with a functioning brain is that things like the name of the school and the name of the professor at the school are left out.  There's a reason for that.

  299. KeithDavidson

    CJAlexander To say that it does work when there is not a single example of success is what is dumb. Since the concept was introduced it has failed in every application. It only works on paper because on paper there is one very critical element missing from the equation; the human element. Socialism is a mere vehicle by which a person or political group or military body rises to power and oppressed eventually revolt and the system collapses. Aside from that, a free-market system established for over 200 years (as in America) is the last place socialism would ever work. It's like trying to mix oil and water. Not going to happen. But you're not going to realize that until it's too late and then when you do, you'll just scream, "Damn you, George Bush!! Damn you, Republicans!"

  300. hanchueh

    TomAdkins hanchueh I did not dispute that China is thriving by going capitalist. I was using that statement as sarcasm to show how the term socialist is being misused by the right wing of the US.
    You mention Hong Kong having high standards of living. Did you know that part of the reason is because they have a great public healthcare system that anyone can use freely by having a HK ID?

  301. Schplatt

    Right, because every superstar on the team is there so that his teammates can slack off.
    "Oh, I'm just a second stringer, I don't need to practice or work hard, I'll just ride the coat tails of the stars"
    This is how you get cut from a team.

  302. Schplatt

    More accurate would be, 
    100 points are needed to pass. There are 10 students who can earn 100 points by answering every question correctly.  In a socialist system, we take everyone's final score, no matter how good or bad, and we just average it all out across all the students, but only after waste and corruption loses 200 points, and then the teacher takes another 100 in a tax. We end up giving everyone mediocrity.
    In a capitalist system there are 10 students who all start at 0 but need to get 100 points to pass.  If you answer every question correctly you will earn 100 points.  Some students think of creative and useful ways to do extra work and the teacher does not restrict this.  They are rewarded with extra points for their extra creativity.  Each person is responsible for their own score and it is dependent on their own effort.
    In the USA for the past 80 years the students need 100 points to pass.  But the teacher likes the girl with the big breasts who strokes him when he wants, so she gets a handicap of 50 points to start with.  Another student who needs help offers to pay one of the better students to tutor him outside of class, but the teacher has regulated tutoring to only a select few students that he really likes and so there's just not enough time for everyone to get help.  If you don't follow the teacher's regulations you don't get to tutor and you might even get a hit on your score.  The lazy students who don't study blame the teacher for their lack of performance and in response the school buys them all an Xbox…why? We're not sure…

  303. JeffWalters1

    cj_pomerantzChristopherKodaJasonShoupErikGruber Well, the part about Muslims is pretty close to the truth. The rest of it's bull crap.

  304. JeffWalters1

    cj_pomerantzChristopherKodaJasonShoupErikGruber To put it bluntly, the only difference between Communism and Socialism is that a Socialist will try to achieve his goals by propaganda and sly political maneuvering, while a Communist will just point a gun at your head and say "Let's do this my way, shall we?" They both want to achieve the same ends, they just use different means to get there.

  305. KeithDavidson

    hanchueh Ok libtard. I'll play. What's to say your opinion isn't as fictitious as you say this article is? I don't see you posting anything to the contrary. And even if you did it would most likely be from some libtard, leftist, in-the-tank, Obama-butt-kissing news source that couldn't be trusted to take out the garbage, let alone provide anything useful. Unless you really are mentally handicapped, as libtards tend to be, you can't deny the pure logic of the experiment, even if the article is allegorical. But, don't worry, though. No reason to run to the Xanax bottle. You mindless zombies are winning in your efforts to destroy America because 40 years ago your leaders used the last brain matter you had amongst you to implement the take over of the public school system. You dumbed down the curriculum and kicked God out and as a result we now have kids who easily graduate high school and can't read their diploma but have known how to put a condom on since they were nine years old. After all, everybody knows how important it is to have pre-teens jumping in the sack. Babies making babies so you can abort them. Oh what fun it would be to bump the numbers from 3,500 a day to, say, 8,000, or even 10,000!! And it's better to have a warm fuzzy feeling right now from knowing there won't be any depressed kids who failed the fifth grade, than it is to suck it up and provide extra attention to the kids who need it and thus have an educated America that can compete in the global economy. It's all about how you "feel", right? And hey! The really good part is all the Louis Pastures and George Washington Carvers and Madame Curies and Martin Luther Kings and Albert Einsteins we kept from being born, right? Oh it's so rewarding to be a narrow-minded liberal ass-whipe!

  306. slowhoa

    KeithDavidson CJAlexander Since decade of 1990, The top socialism countries as Russia, Eastern Europe communist Bloc ran away the social modern that designed by a dishonest man, Karl Marx and rejected what Lenin transformed Karl Marx's theory into the reality. The cold war temporarily passed over, but the socialism is still remaining into China, Vietnam, Laos, North Korea and Cuba. The socialism have been rescued by capitalist, likely China, Vietnam open the iron curtain and applying an ugly economic pattern:" free market leads by socialism". Indeed the socialism failed, the most product labelled from the communist country could meet the good quality as the airplane of Russia often being accident or " made in China" without long lasting. It is the consequence of socialism into product, so Russia has to take long time for fix.
    The communist countries above recognized the socialism doesn't work and they tipped  into the rubbish bin, why do some one in the western states are still dreaming the communist paradise?. The socialism is like a fake cake with colorful decoration, 100 million killed is enough and enough.

  307. JeffWalters1

    SmaugTheTerriblejoeroppoloIf you have any income at all you either create it yourself by running your own business, or you work for one of those "evil" wealthy people who writes you a check every week out of their bank account. I have worked many jobs and every paycheck I ever got came from a wealthy person. The wealthy become wealthy by investing in and running a business successfully, which is (in and of itself) a lot of hard work. If they want to share that wealth with me in return for my time and talent, I'm all for it. And, since they are the ones who risked their money and reputation to establish a profitable business, I don't begrudge them their more than comfortable lifestyle.

  308. payingattention

    KeithDavidson hanchueh Okay, sir.  I can see that you have a point with this one (especially about how well the fabricated experiment proved this theory), but, honestly, years ago, the educational system wasn't that sublime.  Honestly, everyone's grade point average rode on very minimal fuel back then.  Additionally, there is no need to become so overly righteous and offensive with your language.  You can portray an opinion with better diction and less profanity.  Honestly, I am appalled that you would post such a vulgar, insensitive comment that implied that this person believes in every angle of  what a liberal stands for.  Also, do you think that children nowadays are getting pregnant because of liberal decisions?  If so, then you must be mistaken.  Teenagers receive sexual education and choose to have sex.  There are many teenagers who are at the forefront of the abortion debate who support abortion.  Some of these teenagers are desperate.  If someone is willing to kill their baby through abortion, who says they won't take their own measures to get rid of one?  Why make a child into a murder of their own device?  I have read a couple of articles about young girls killing their children after birth.  And, no, I am not justifying their actions, if anything, I promote abstinence.  Sadly, with today's society, that most likely will not happen.

    Have a great day.


  309. kvec

    TomAdkins I would argue that socialism is not based upon the emotion of jealousy as you say but on empathy. We are all on this planet, in our countries, in our communities together. In my opinion, and the opinion of a lot of people in the world, an empathetic "let's help each other out" viewpoint is more beneficial to society than a selfish "what's mine is mine" attitude.

  310. ChristopherKoda

    kvecJeffWalters1cj_pomerantzChristopherKodaJasonShoupErikGruberChristopherKodaChristopherKodaChristopherKod a or group living in which there is no private property
    b:  a
    system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and
    controlled bythe state
    3:  a stage of society in theory transitional between… and… and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay
    according to work done This is wikipedia's definition so it is you who has no xclue as to what you are spouting as fact.

  311. JeffWalters1

    kvecJeffWalters1I don't need an education in the classic definitions of Communism and Socialism. I have an IQ of 138 and I understand those things well. What I'm talking about is the practical application of both systems, which have been proven, several times over, to be a miserable failure, and resulted in the untimely deaths of between 80 and 100 million people in the 20th Century. I didn't realize I was hiding my true colors either. Every comment I have made on this subject has been plainly anti Socialism and pro Capitalism.

  312. rwgonzalez01

    hanchuehTomAdkins an HK ID to get healthcare. That would not work over here as we have to allow illegal immigrants healthcare. We would also have people saying its racist as they have to show a ID and not everyone can afford a ID.

  313. Zachary Raphael Pina

    KeithDavidson hanchueh When someone opens with the term "Libtard" you know they are going to be a wealth of bias, and hilarious remarks.  Don't worry, some Democrats say stupid things too like "Faux News".  You extremists are funny with your endless lines of "witty" insults.  I'm sure you've won many arguments, sir.  Keep at it.

  314. Maura

    he really failed everyone? sorry but that is ridiculous. you can't make a political point at the expense of paying students.

  315. smithkey08

    rwgonzalez01 hanchueh TomAdkins We don't allow illegals anything, they can use emergency services due to hospital policies but they get no healthcare or anything beyond that, they have no proof of residence or citizenship. And I don't see how an illegal immigrant would even be able to get an ID since they would have no birth certificate or social security card. So requiring an ID would solve the illegals mooching our healthcare problem. Also not everyone can afford an ID? After a quick perusing of the DMV website, state ID cards range from $6 to $20 and are valid from 4 to 8 years. If you can't afford that then shit, I don't know what to say. You have bigger issues to worry about than politics, illegals, and healthcare.

  316. smithkey08

    KeithDavidson hanchueh And it is people like you in the party that made me switch to a more center/center left position, holy shit. You may also want to double check who is wanting to change the curriculum and cut the educational systems budgets and funding. As for the pre-teens having babies, who's pushing abstinence-only sex education? How is that working out according to you (teen pregnancy is actually declining but why fact check, am I right?)? I'll say you are regurgitating talking points because every election that's all the Republicans talked about and mailed me shit about.

  317. CantSufferFools

    KeithDavidson hanchueh you realize that you just said that even though preteens can use condoms, they are making babies to abort. Which would imply that they didn't learn how to use a condom.  As a graduate of our educational system I can tell you that I was never taught how to use a condom, it was simply recommended that I use one if i do have sex.  By the way way to use as many buzzwords as possible to try to win your argument.  By the way, if your worried about god being kicked out of school maybe you shouldn't go around calling people things like libtard or ass-whipe (<- also wipe is mispelled, spell check is your friend).  Not really a christian way of going about things (that is unless its the year 1300)

  318. hanchueh

    smithkey08 KeithDavidson hanchueh Actually I classify myself as an independent and not a Democrat. Although I agree with the left wing of US more than the right, I still look at each policy independently. For example I support the death penalty. I voted to keep the death penalty in California which became the result.
    On the issue of abortion, I believe it should be legal. Yes, there is a danger of it being abused and becoming like murder, so there must be very detailed rules and watchdog organizations set up to make sure all legal abortions have good reasons, such as the result of rape and/or incest. I believe these rules should be written to preserve the mother's physical, psychological, and economic well-being and not according to some religious doctrine.
    On the issue of sexual education, I believe we should teach them all legal options. We should teach teenagers to be abstinent when sexual acts are illegal, and we should teach them to use protection properly when sexual acts become legal under the laws of their particular state.
    As for the left vs right in the US, it's clear which side is more reasonable when one side has to use fabricated stories instead of documented facts to promote its agenda.

  319. RalfAmok

    KeithDavidson – lots of name calling and semi intelligent ramblings.  Funny thing is, this article is not real, never was.  It's called – fact checking, but I guess that's something that someone of your… let's say "kind" wouldn't grasp.  Here's a thing Mr. Davidson.  I think Obama's a joke, but that's just the latest fumble of the US "democratic" system.  All of the presidents since the end of the second war have ruined this system.  Anyone blaming a single individual or the present congress for what's transpiring at the moment, can't see very far past their own nose.  Another problem with this "brilliant teacher" however fake he is – there's a distinct difference between communism and socialism.  Believe me, I was "lucky" enough to experience both in my youth and have also lived stateside for two decades.  I can tell you that the right wing rhetoric resembles a communist one nearly to the T. You wouldn't know that however, how could you.  As per your education comment… the US has been far behind most countries for decades this has about as much to do with Obama as communism.  What people like you should do, is read a bit of history books not just shiny covered propaganda nonsense but the likes of Hannity and Coulter.  What you should do, is travel a bit, go abroad, visit the old continent.  I now live under social democracy and guess what, the country's not bankrupt, we get free uni education, free healthcare and 30 paid vacation days not to mention paid maternity and paternity leave… on top of many other things covered by our 24% income tax.  Something that the rest of the world is enjoying yet the most industrious nation on this planet refuses to provide to its citizens.  It's time to wake up Mr. Davidson, this is not a left or right war, this is a war against you, waged by the corporate greed and sponsored by both parties and while you waste your time arguing on their behalf and spreading their nonsense online to some more gullible fools, these guys are drinking a 60 year old Scotch together, laughing at your ignorance.  oh… and by the way… if socialism is such a bad thing, why don't we rid of free primary, secondary and high school education?  It's 100% socialism… it must be bad.

  320. KeithDavidson

    slowhoa I think the translator had a little difficulty with your comments, but I get the basic idea of what you're saying and I totally agree. I do not know why people in the West are so in love with the idea of socialism/communism. It boggles the mind.

  321. KeithDavidson

    payingattention Sounds like you're another liberal who is so hypersensitive that everything in the universe offends you. Gay much?

  322. KeithDavidson

    smithkey08KeithDavidson ignorant Obamite. Pulling responses out of your hairless ass just because someone DOES provide easily verifiable facts, which you want others to do for you and refuse to do yourself. That's why when the SHTF you'll be one of the first to drop because you have a deliberate desire to stay stupid and depend on others to think for you. And thanks for proving it by responding exactly as I said you would. Meathead!

  323. TrevorJon

    You have obviously never made $25,000 a year. No one making that is attempting to live in $200,000 homes or drive beamers. They are merely trying to survive on whatever cheapest product is available to them. Unfortunately with an income so low, products literally do not exist at a price point they can afford. They don't need to be told that they are shopping at stores that are too good for them (further classifying needlessly). Rather than teaching them how to be more thrifty (to a level off nonexistent efficiency) and telling them they need to learn to live with what they have, maybe they could just be paid wages on which survival is actually POSSIBLE! Maybe the answer isn't "be more frugal", maybe it's "hey thanks for working such long and hard hours for me this week, here's enough money to actually feed your family for a change!" ……… You're right @jeffwalters1, it's probably because he/she is lazy, and not because the system is so unbelievably skewed in the favor of the elite that this horrible downward spiraling scenario is literally the best this individual has to hope for.
    The point being made that you missed is that if I am born a "trust fund baby" (not necessarily regarding trust funds, only using the term to identify individuals that didn't cunningly and fervently use the capitalistic system to acquire his/her own funds) to parents that are highly educated and have always been wealthy, I don't have to do ANYTHING and my life is completely set for success. From day one with cliche silver spoon in mouth, my hand will be figuratively held and guided through school, social gatherings and business meetings. The level of my effort or will to succeed are non factors. Regardless of the trouble I get into with school or the law; no matter what drug or alcohol problems my affluence may have led me to acquire, nothing lessens my likelihood of succeeding. I will graduate from a university. I will be introduced to many powerful businessman and politicians. And I will be ushered into my cushy six figure salary job with full benefits at the ripe old age of 23.
    So which seems more relevant, teaching the poor and suffering that they are living too well for their means and need tone it down a bit, or making the opportunities for success for everyone actually equal???????????? (Or at least pretend that we are aware that the vast majority HAVE NO CHANCE!)
    The mere existence of government subsidy programs proves that the minimum wage in this country is obscenely low. The incentive to work comes from receiving an income worth working for.

  324. KeithDavidson

    CantSufferFools You do realize that you entirely missed the point, right? Let me guess; you meant to do that, huh? The point was the educational system focusing on sex education instead of American history or some of the other more important subjects is why we have kids having kids. Secondly, it takes about two seconds to figure out the whole reason for having sex is because it feels good, therefore it stands to reason that it takes even less time than that to figure out that it feels better without a condom than it does with one. "recommended that I use one if I do have sex" meaning you are a victim of the liberal agenda to have little children knowledgeable about sex. The fact that you cannot see what's wrong with that whole idea is very telling about you. Libtard and ass-wipe won't send me to hell, rejecting God's plan for salvation would do that quite effectively. And besides I never claimed to be Billy freaking Graham, now did I? And since you're all for the liberal philosophy on life you're probably the last person on Earth who should go around lecturing people on what is and what isn't the Christian way. Nor should you lecture me on proper punctuation or grammar. Good grief, you dope! Just read your own comments!! LOL!!!

  325. KeithDavidson

    RalfAmok Well, semi-intelligent beats out delusional any day. Remember the part where I said, "you can't deny the pure logic of the experiment, even if the article is allegorical"? Remember that? No you don't, do you? That was an acknowledgement that the experiment may never have happened, but that it is undeniably true that people who know their hard work will be rewarded by tyrannical government officials taking the fruits of their labor away and giving it to others will soon the inclination to work, creating the problem that socialists AND communists have been faced with for generations. It's amazing how much you think you know about me. Like for example you completely invented in your otherwise empty skull that I attached the current condition of the education system to one person and/or the current Congress. You can't point out where I said that, because I didn't. You also assume you know from what media sources I get information; Hannity, Coulter. Please. Amazing how much you seem to entertain yourself with the things you make up in your head, and yet you have the gall to say something so ironically befitting of yourself, about thinking past one's own nose….really? Comical to say the least. Also, I do know there is a difference between socialism and communism. You invented the idea that I don't know that. The point, which you so blindly went right past was that none of those philosophies on society or economics is good, not for America, not for any country. I could go on to just about everything you said, showing how incredibly detached from reality you are, but you get the point. I will say that out of all these idiots I've been dealing with, you are by far the most delusional. You really think you can compete in the market place of ideas, when all your ideas are fabricated in your head. You've been indoctrinated and you don't even know it. Sad, really. Oh by the way, thanks for proving my point about how socialism sucks: You said, "I think Obama's a joke, but that's just the latest fumble of the US "democratic" system.  Here's the thing, Sparky. You ready to learn how to run with the big dogs? Here it comes. The fact that this "fumble" you speak of was socialism, which has been perpetrated on the American people by a not-so-democratic party made up of lying liberals, which is another word for socialists, is proof socialism doesn't work. You're right, Obama is a joke, and he's a socialist. Coincidence? Not hardly. Greetings from the greatest country that has ever existed on the face of the planet, even though people who think like you want to destroy it, it's still great, for the time being. USA!!! USA!!! USA!!!

  326. FarmerTom

    Such nonsense. Anyone's Spidey Sense should have been tingling when you see that the school isn't named, the alleged professor isn't named… But yes, utter fabrication, and of course, not believable.

  327. SmaugTheTerrible

    Schplatt SmaugTheTerrible ShawnSuiters You managed to look right at my words and miss my meaning entirely. No team thrives on superstars doing work and other people slacking off. For a team to thrive, everyone has to play their part and only then can there be victory. In basketball, you have to pass the ball at least once before your team can score. The economy is set up so that you never have to pass the ball and all, and oh what a failure that iteration is turning out to be.

  328. SmaugTheTerrible

    KeithDavidson hanchueh  ", you can't deny the pure logic of the experiment,"
    …Well, I happen to be pretty good at logic, despite the fact that this is a fictitious account (which means they had the latitude to make their story actually logical and chose not to in order to appeal to the lowest common denominator), so I'll explain some of the logic flaws inherent in this story. 

    Affirming a disjunct – concluding the capitalism must be failure-proof because stalinism/ socialism has failed before.

    Argument from ignorance – by default because the environment does not simulate an economic environment, unlike the experiments game theorists set up  which do. 

    Argument from repetition – because beating the "commie' horse is a meme that's been alive longer than some of the people speaking on this forum currently. 

    Begging the question – not only because this is fictitious, and therefore the story is designed around the conclusion, but also because if this were a real experiment, you would have to deign to denigrate socialism from the onset of it in order to come up with an experiment that demonstrates that capitalism is good and socialism is bad. It's crude too, but that's not a fallacy.

    Equivocation – because what the story describes isn't socialism and what most people call communism isn't communism by theory.. in much the same way that America is a federal republic (Look it up before you comment), not a representative democracy and certainly not a straight democracy or republic. 

    Circular reasoning – by way of the title

    cum hoc ergo propter hoc – regarding the failures of socialism in world history. 

    Suppressed correlative – regarding the future of socialism in world history. 

    Ecological fallacy – regarding socialism in world history, again.

    Fallacy of composition – regarding socialism in world history, Again.

    False dilemma – regarding socialism "versus" capitalism.

    False attribution – the premise of this story is a fabrication.

    Historian's fallacy – by default in analyzing outcomes of socialism and judging the system's implementation in the future based upon results obtained at a time when no historical information was available. In other words, the messed up and now someone can do it better. 

    Homunculus fallacy -This entire story is in fact the homunculus fallacy. 

    Incomplete comparison – the experiment did not attempt to recreate capitalism, even in this bastardized environment. 

    Inconsistent comparison – the experiment design was flawed in reflectign socialism (especially where the means of production and the motivations of individuals are concerned). 

    Moral high ground – because for some reason people think it's not only okay, but the right thing to do, to write fictitious accounts about an improperly conducted experiment regarding well documented economic theory and make it an emotional issue. 

    Kettle logic – Again, this story. Also, many of the comments that follow ins upport of it. 

    Ludic fallacy – in analysis of previous iterations fo socialism and current iterations of capitalism. 

    Nirvana fallacy – because something not working once is a great reason to never try it again (when in fact we have a government in place that is a second attempt of sorts. If you haven't, please read Machiavelli). 

    Proving too much – Again, let's see the story made to reflect an example of a capitalist system and see whether the outcomes are equally absurd (with one student in the 30 holding an absurd amount of the possible grade points and the rest failing, in all likelihood).

    Psychologist's fallcay – Saying that socialism doesn't work because this fictitious and badly designed experiment didn't work is assuming an objective view of the reasoning behind the failure, which wouldn't have been available through observation alone (especially in an environment with no marketplace). 

    Red herring – This entire story is basically this too. 

    Okay, I'm getting tired. I'm just going to shotgun the rest of these fallacies and call it a morning. 

    Regression, retrospective determinism, false analogy, cherry picking, hasty generalization, misleading vivdness, thought-terminating cliche, association fallacy, appeal to emotion, appeal to tradition, genetic fallacy, strawman, texas sharpshooter (just about 1000% of this), and slippery slope. 

    I hope this has been educational for you. 

    By the way, in case you missed it, You're the lowest common denominator.

  329. SmaugTheTerrible

    JeffWalters1 SmaugTheTerrible joeroppolo You didn't actually meet my objection there. You just handwaved the secondary impacts of the boom-bust cycle (little guys getting wiped out of the market and big guys making bank because they have enough free capital to hedge their bets in a major way and direct market access so they can pull out the losing horse quickly and cheaply) so that you could essentially say "trickledown economics". 

    Also, slow down there before you hurt yourself. You just said that to have income you either have ot be entrepreneur (which I've been) or work for someone wealthy. That entirely, and incorrectly, writes off all entrepreneurs, like myself, who were not wealthy but still had employees and wrote them checks. False alternatives fallacy AND strawman, but it's cool though. The internet, right? lol.

  330. RalfAmok

    KeithDavidson – hardly trying to destroy anything.  Your comment however – case in point.  I do like however how you skipped the bit about schooling system being social.  In any case, as I've mentioned before, I've had the opportunity to grow up in three different places under three different political systems and know it from the inside.  I've done quite a bit of traveling and also own my own business, never actually part took in the social system or wanted to utilize the option of social assistance so I'm far from liberal or socialist.  You can sit here and be an online genius with a huge mouth and an ego only matched by the size of your fat.  [Funny that you should be talking about sex and people having it]  See, anyone and everyone can be a douche nozzle online, but it takes a special kind of asshole to really stand out in this geriatric race for net supremacy.  You can try and back paddle as much as you want, scream USA till your made in China flag tatters to bits, that will not change the fact, that in reality, you're just a king of this here board and your victory is marked with people such as myself, too terrified by the sheer size of your ignorance… again, only outgrown by your belly.  Have you ever been outside of your living room or your county?

  331. SmaugTheTerrible

    JeffWalters1 kvec If you have a mensa level IQ, it entirely astounds me that you would have no understanding of the concept that a system can be implemented incorrectly (which would result in historical failure, consistent with what you're describing), that a system may have been impossible to implement correctly due to technological limitations (you can't comment on the inefficiency of a government in 1500 AD when we have additional technologies available to us today that make communications instantaneous and transportation of goods both quick and efficient), and that practical implementation of a system can be improved by using data of previous failures (this is the premise behind just about all science). 
    If we judged the history of medicine by the standards your'e judging socialism with, we should have concluded that "modern medicine", which suffered heavily from iatrogenics all the way through the last century, should never have made it out of the dark ages in europe and that traditional folk medicine is superior. Improvement using information from failures on systems that may have been incorrectly implemented is the back bone of scientific development. It's why you and I are talking on a computer right now. I'm not sure how this escaped your 138 IQ.

  332. ErikGruber

    JeffWalters1 kvec You have an IQ of 138? Yet you think that all Muslims are one step away from being terrorists? Where did you have your IQ tested? And socialism is in practice in many successful nation RIGHT NOW.

  333. RalfAmok

    ErikGruber – that's the main problem.  Most people are so brainwashed that they don't realize the difference between communism and socialism. On top of it, they don't even realize that they've been educated THANKS to a socialist system which offers free primary, secondary and high school education.  When it comes to Americans especially – their neighbors up north – socialist country with an amazing social system and many great benefits.  The greatest achievement of an oppressive regime is convincing its victims to become tools of their own oppression.

  334. RalfAmok

    JeffWalters1 ehmm… no. Half of EU is social democracy.  Most developed countries in the world are in large percent socialist.  Most of those countries offer social services to their citizens that US citizens can only dream about.  This is not some libtard propaganda, it's a fact.  What people stateside are told about socialism and about what it's like to live in a country with high social standards is nothing but a pack of lies.

  335. RalfAmok

    JeffWalters1 Norway, Sweden, Swiss, Holland, Poland, France, Germany… should I continue?  Failures?  I'd love for my friends stateside to experience such failures.

  336. ChristopherKoda

    TrevorJonIn all your rantings and ravings you somehow failed to recognize the real facts of life.  A lot of those poor earning folks you speak of today are there because they dropped out of High School and decided to go make babies.  They learned this behavior from their parent/s because mommy and daddy did the same thing they dropped out of High School and found out hey the government will provide so I can just keep making babies.  We all started out in Kindergarten and progressed from their some of us kept pushing and working and striving to succeed.  Others just wuit and thought welfare was easier.

  337. slappykh

    This is only analogous if our government Collected 100 percent of everyones income and redistributed it equally to everyone. This says nothing about Obama's actual policies, and is simply an example of the"poisoning the well" logical fallacy.

  338. JamesJones6

    we all know socialism doesn't work but I would be pissed if the grades were real and if the professor held my grades hostage to prove a fucking point. I would have dropped his class like it was hot.

  339. FarmerTom

    JamesJones6 Okay, calm down. The story is bogus. Never happened. Made up. Lies. Fabrication. See below. Check Snopes.

  340. karateman39

    Nice story. To bad it's a complete fabrication. No proffesor name, no college name, no nothing. If this wre true in this day and age it would show p on al sorts of sites. If I remember right, I've seeen this story over 6 years ago.

  341. newsninja2012

    For everyone that has joined into to this scenario, thanks for visiting and even reading it. Many of you are like-minded and have read through the story and know that it's true. If this was enacted on a classroom this would be the outcome. 

    What I am reading now is liberals, progressives or those that dismiss the STORY because it's a scenario and not real. They can't cope with the real truth that you can't move poor people into prosperity by legislation from Washington, DC.  Government doesn't have the authority to take from Citizen A and give to Citizen B to make things even. 

    Its a shame that more people aren't waking up to this. 

    Thanks again for sharing this and keep doing so to people that can think clearly and understand that SOCIALISM DOESN'T WORK.

  342. forgottenrevenant


  343. Reverend Draco

    An unselfish "what's mine is mine" attitude is what forged the US into what was once the greatest country on earth. It's the same unselfish attitude involved when, as a child, one is taught not to take things that aren't theirs, and to ask before using someone else's stuff. It's called Good Manners, and it would behoove you (and a horrifyingly-large number of other people) to learn some.
    Sorry to have to burst your bubble, Sparkles (oh, wait, I LOVE bursting bubbles!) – theft is not now, nor has it ever been, an appropriate method of transferring ownership. . . whether the criminal has a badge or wears a suit or has a fancy title or calls himself a Crip. Empathy is a voluntary action – a virtue, as it were. Theft, on the other hand, cannot be called a virtue no matter how you twist and distort the actual meaning of the word.

  344. Reverend Draco

    It probably should amaze me that so many people are militantly incapable of comprehending allegory and parable – but it doesn't – I've watched the low quality of schools when I was young, race to the sewer in the years since.
    As of last year, 70% of all HS graduates are illiterate – 80% are innumerate (according to numbers released by the CSU/UC systems). . . a far cry from the days (before "public schools) when the US enjoyed a nearly-universal literacy of over 90%.

    "No people will tamely surrender their Liberties, nor can any be easily subdued, when knowledge is diffused and Virtue is preserved. On the Contrary, when People are universally ignorant, and debauched in their Manners, they will sink under their own weight without the Aid of foreign Invaders." ~ Samuel Adams

    Better hope that there's enough room in the lifeboats. . .

  345. ErikGruber

    newsninja2012 Ignoring the fact that it's fabrication and you just take it as a parable, it's still wrong because it's not describing socialism. So much for your documented facts.

  346. ErikGruber

    Reverend Draco "70% of all High School Graduates are illiterate" I'd really loveeee to know where you pulled that insanely inaccurate stat from.

  347. SmaugTheTerrible

    newsninja2012 Your confidence seems very high. Replicate the experiment if you want anyone to believe you.

  348. BobYoung1

    Reverend Draco our schools are now dumbing down the population, as required by the Obama regime. Keep the population stupid and dependent.

  349. kvec

    Reverend Draco kvec TomAdkins See, I would consider the top 10% of the US owning 80% of the wealth theft, which I agree with you is not a virtue. I'm all for hard working people being rewarded for their effort, but if you can't see how obscenely skewed our economic system is towards those who already have literally unspendable amounts of money, you must be blind.

  350. ErikGruber

    BobYoung1 Reverend Draco Rightt, certainly "No Child left behind" had no affect on our schools…

  351. BobYoung1

    ErikGruberBobYoung1FarmerTom do you really need to know bro? One university starts with Cor and the other with an H

  352. SmaugTheTerrible

    Reverend DracokvecTomAdkins "It's the same unselfish attitude involved when, as a child, one is taught not to take things that aren't theirs, and to ask before using someone else's stuff."
    Yes, not to take other people's property. Of course, it was a different attitude that taught that it was okay for there to exist community property (like shared toys and books at school) and that appropriating these community resources for selfish personal gain (a useless accumulation of resources meant to be shared) was just as wrong as taking another individual's toys. However, your abstraction leaves no room for in between "someone else's stuff" and "my stuff", which is horrifically incorrect.
    "theft is not now, nor has it ever been, an appropriate method of transferring ownership."
    ….Lol…. what? This country is literally built on stolen land. Land that was stolen through the spread of pestilence, the use of advanced weaponry, and making deals regarding personal ownership with aborigines that only had concepts of communal ownership (also known as stealing community property). Does the word "Imperialism" not exist in your lexicon?
    "Empathy is a voluntary action – a virtue, as it were."
    Empathy is an involuntary part of most of our neural circuitry. It operates using mirror neurons. Essentially, if you have a fully functioning brain, you have no choice but to feel what other people feel (obvious outliers in this are people on the autism spectrum, sociopaths and people with other more common less severe mental illnesses like bipolarism, ocd, and any other illness that may deprioritize empathy in favor of compulsion or selfish behavior).
    "Theft, on the other hand, cannot be called a virtue no matter how you twist and distort the actual meaning of the word."
    How true. How resources can be "owned" is beyond me, seeing as how the claims to ownership are rooted only in "I was here first, so this plot of land and everything on it, under it, and above it for several miles, belongs to me. ME, ME, ME." And you claim that it's unselfish. lol. That's a good one.

  353. SmaugTheTerrible

    Reverend Draco Economics is a science. I wouldn't accept allegories or parables in a chemistry textbook if they obscured or bastardized the correct definitions of terms or defining of phenomena and no one should accept it here either. If you want to get into a polarized discussion, that's fine. Just don't pretend you have an ironclad premise to work from in defending your case.

  354. RandySeck

    LOL. Obama is a Right leaning authoritarian crooked capitalist if we ever had one in office. Also you are referring TO COMMUNISM NOT SOCIALISM YOU MORONS!!!! STOP PERPETUATING THIS MISINFORMATION ABOUT OUR PRESIDENT AND ABOUT ECONOMIC AND GOVERNMENT ORGANIZATIONS.

  355. Brand3

    Who exactly is jealous and what are they jealous of? Of others' money? If it's these poor jealous people making the decisions then I agree with you. But aren't the people making legislative decisions well-off? In which case sympathy would be the human emotion driving socialism.

  356. ErikGruber

    BobYoung1 ErikGruber FarmerTom Yeah I'm just curious, what are your honorifics from those places?

  357. SpencerHershberger

    The result ARE NOT TRUE because there ARE NO RESULTS.
    You cant present results as fact because the experiment NEVER HAPPENED.

  358. nownewstrue

    No problem. Companies then have to pay a living wage so that employees do not have to ask for government handouts. If the company's success is because of not paying taxes plus the government supporting it's workers then how is capitalism working? If companies are dispersing the burden of paying employees to the government via taxpayers dollars for food stamps/housing/etc then that is how is that capitalism?

  359. marcohern

    Allright, enougth with this stupid crap! THIS IS NOT A PROPPER EXAMPLE OF SICIALISM, I DONT KNOW WHAT THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF, BUT IT IS NOT SOCIALISM! The idea of socialism is giving everyone an education, not to average their grades, what the hell is that? Why would anyone do that?

  360. BobYoung1

    ErikGruberBobYoung1FarmerTom Now that Ive answered your question, so which community college were you kicked out of?

  361. ErikGruber

    BobYoung1 ErikGruber FarmerTom I graduated from Temple University with honors, but you seemed to have skipped my last question…

  362. BobYoung1

    ErikGruberBobYoung1FarmerTom Temple is a wannabe Ivy university. Sorry you wasted your time there. BTW, your boat house on the Schuylkill is looking shabby, much like your alma matter.

  363. ErikGruber

    BobYoung1 ErikGruber FarmerTom I don't think Temple has every pretended to be ivy league, besides Ivy leagues is closed up, you can only get in it if you're as old as the other IVY league schools. But you still haven't answer my question. What honorifics did you graduate with?

  364. BobYoung1

    ErikGruberBobYoung1FarmerTom Why is knowing my "honorifics" so important to you?  I only needed to know you went to an inferior 3rd tier university.

  365. ErikGruber

    BobYoung1 ErikGruber FarmerTom Maybe 3rd tier in football, but affordable. I want to know your honorifics because I know you're full of it haha. You can't even tell my your focuses in whatever degrees you supposedly got. It's the classic school yard, "I know but I'm not telling you." You just revert back to insulting my school, which is really irrelevant to me, they offered me the best deal for the education I needed and it's working for me now.

  366. smith204

    nownewstrue Minumum wage is considered based on what it takes to pay for a bedroom for your self and or your partner and two children(3..4….5 kids……well the 2nd one was the sign when ya work for min wage to wrap that ….up) in the same room, and apt, not a house. Food, not eating out though. Instead cooking financially efficient meals for your family for dollars a day.(healthier too)No cable or internet, its why a 100 dollar antenna gets ya 20-100 channels for free.  No ipads, or cell plan.  no car payment(beater)no lattes(COFFEE AT HOME)  Pay as you go for safety if ya want.  40 hours s week at McDonalds flipping burgers should not afford a great life for anyone in this country unless your 20 single and living at your parents.  So companies shouldn't have to pay more then 9 or 10 an hour for something a one million dollar machine can do, that would last longer then the worker most likely.(automated mcdonalds—look it up)   Sorry for the rant..kind of…..  Cant stand people that say minimum wage is not enough to do this life thing in america.  I see many FAMILIES in my area lose there job and make that shit work.  They have to stop playing keep up with the jones, and lose the materialistic view on life, that society so eagerly implants in nearly everyone.  Many people see it like you, honestly in my opinion, its fine, I signed up to fight for that right of yours. Move to Canada, or Sweden.  Quit thinking this country should change the founding principle in which; ANY citizen with a deep passion, that comes from the heart and soul, and he or she pursued(s) in a fashion that benefits the greater good of society in way that changes the quality of life(bill gates, steve jobs, industious individuals in the 1800's buying oil rights for pennies and being called fools. Then supplying Henry Ford the fuel for his ingenious.) These people and people the same, even mildly, deserve a better life that people that work at job that supplies little value to the world…….sorry peeps its AMERICA. PuRsUiT oF PrOsPeRITy…..its why YOUR ANCESTORS CAME HERE CLOWNS!!!!

  367. BobYoung1

    ErikGruberBobYoung1FarmerTom seriously dude. why do I need to justify myself to a guy named goober.

  368. hanchueh

    ErikGruber Reverend Draco I think even more outrageous was his claim that before public schools the US had a literacy of 90%.

  369. hanchueh

    smithkey08 rwgonzalez01 hanchueh TomAdkins Good points, but my real point was:
    Social, single-payer healthcare system leads to high standards of living! HK utilizes a system where everyone can use the public system for free (presumably funded by taxes). The public system needs to be good enough to take care of everyone but also affordable enough to not bankrupt the country.
    At the same time, HK also has a private system where people can choose to pay more (aka private health insurance in the US) to get higher quality care to avoid long lines.
    It's a win-win system. Everyone can get free healthcare to manage everyday health problems. People who have higher health risks or want to pay extra also has private options to get what they need or want. This is what the US should have, a social healthcare system with extra private options available. Instead, we just have the private options which artificially inflates healthcare bills every year. Healthcare cost at the current rate inflates much faster than salary raises and inflation. It's not sustainable. Ultimately we will bankrupt the whole country with hospital bills.

  370. hanchueh

    KeithBarber1 Actually in one version they named a college in Texas. Obviously, this never happened in that college. Still a phony story.

  371. hanchueh

    newsninja2012 FarmerTom We mean the "If you like your healthcare plan you can keep it (unless the insurance companies decide to screw you over like they always do) Barack Obama

  372. hanchueh

    newsninja2012 The results aren't true if the scenario is made up. That's the same as saying whoever you picked in Fantasy Football is the real champion and not the actual team that won the final game. You're the one that needs to wake up.

  373. hanchueh

    ErikGruber BobYoung1 FarmerTom Well according to his FB page, he really does have a degree from Cornell and is now in NYU Business school.

  374. spitefulspear91919

    marcohernif you take the socialism model and apply it to how grades for a class work…..the whole class eventually fails. if you understand this, great. if you dont, you probably never will.

  375. ErikGruber

    hanchueh ErikGruber BobYoung1 FarmerTom You'll also notice it says "class of 1905" I guess after highschool he traveled back in time? And where's Harvard? The only H Ivy league school.

  376. spitefulspear91919

    ErikGruberspitefulspear91919marcohernof course it is. you level the playing field. you take from the successful to give to the less fortunate. socialism in a handbasket, perfectly described by this article. like i said before, if you dont get it, you probably never will because your mind is locked into totally ignoring the part where you have to take something from someone else to give all that free stuff to the poor.

    trying to explain this is like arguing with an oak tree.

  377. ErikGruber

    spitefulspear91919 ErikGruber marcohern Ok. Two things. That "article" you posted doesn't explain either socialism OR communism.  It explains our current tax bracketing system. Second, socialism is simply when you add onto to our current system of government a service provided at the tax payer's expense. It changes nothing about how our tax system works, just perhaps the amount we have to pay. Communism is when everyone is offered the same wage by the government. My mind is not locked into anything, I just know what the words mean. Just because you say it's socialism, doesn't make it so.

  378. spitefulspear91919

    ErikGruberspitefulspear91919marcohern  i meant the article about the teacher in this page=) sorry for the confffooosion

  379. ErikGruber

    spitefulspear91919 ErikGruber marcohern Oh, well that also is NOT socialism. Again, if you're ignorant enough to call it that, then I suppose that's your prerogative but if you could avoid teaching it that way to people, that would be great.

  380. spitefulspear91919

    ErikGruberspitefulspear91919marcohern  ahh, the insults start, as expected. the conversation ends here my friend=) buh bye

  381. LumpySpacePrincess

    jjbb88 you missed the point. The students who read the material and should have received As got Bs instead, because there were classmates that slacked off. Come next test, the students that normally would have studied to get their As knew they wouldn't because of the slackers, and they didn't want to put in the work if the other students didn't. So they slacked off too. When they all received Ds, they blamed each other for not studying. If they had rallied together and all studied, they could have received As. Instead, they still insisted on NOT studying, because why should they study when others still won't. So they all failed. 

    This is just an allegory. If this actually happened somewhere, would this be the only outcome possible? of course not. This particular allegory exists because of our current political climate. Do you think the politicians on Capital Hill–or the American people–would rally together after their first test? Or do you think they'd point fingers and blame everyone else until failure occurs? Frankly, I'm not optimistic.

  382. ErikGruber

    spitefulspear91919 ErikGruber marcohern It's not an insult. I'm just saying if you think this is socialism that's ignorance, not that it's your fault, but I would like to correct it. I don't mean to insult, I'm just saying there's a lot of ignorance surround the term.

  383. LumpySpacePrincess

    jjbb88 Also, the professor in the allegory didn't institute a policy for a grading curve. That would mean that there would be As, because the highest grade rounded up to 100. 

    Everyone received the same grade. In a class of 20, if 5 people scored 100% As and 15 people slacked off and got 50% Fs, the class average–and everyone's earned grade– would be 62.5% D.

  384. LumpySpacePrincess

    Schplatt SmaugTheTerrible ShawnSuiters Except that's the point of the allegory. the slacker students WERE riding on the coattails of the hard-working students. 

    The allegory's point is that no one gets cut from the team (class, country), so the whole team gets dragged down. Actually, your metaphor of cutting people from the team would mean execution of the slackers. :-/

  385. spooningleads24king

    ErikGrubernewsninja2012karateman39 Of course he doesn't, he knows EXACTLY which one he wants to transform this country into.

  386. StevenWellman

    marcohern Socialism is a society where everyone that gain gives up to those that don't for the "social good". This is EXACTLY what socialism is. In your example, if everyone gets an education you have to have teachers and schools to educate everyone in. Who pays the teachers salaries, or do they work for free? Who pays for the schools, or do they just meet in a open field, even in the winter? Those that PRODUCE have what they made taken to pay for this education you speak of. Think on your own, think through the whole scenario EDUCATE YOURSELF. Don't believe the right or left just because they say it, hear with BOTH have to say then make your OWN decision. Come on man.

  387. spooningleads24king

    JamesJones6 That's the whole point. If you were is a class where this actually took place, you and many others would have dropped it because the results would have been pretty much as described in this short story. You would have said there is no way I am giving up part of my grade so that someone else could have a better one. Case rested.

  388. StevenWellman

    spitefulspear91919 It IS socialism, read my comment below please. Then respond and tell me how I am incorrect. I'm happy to a conversation, if you can converse intelligently about it. No insults, just communication.

  389. hanchueh

    ErikGruber spitefulspear91919 marcohern Real economic socialism means group of people can own the means of production together. It is like companies giving stock to employees. It has nothing to do with this article.

  390. ErikGruber

    StevenWellman spitefulspear91919 Schools are socialist by nature. However, this example/demonstration doesn't demonstrate socialism.

  391. StevenWellman

    ErikGruber spitefulspear91919 marcohern You said, "socialism is simply when you add onto our current system of government a service provided at the tax payer's expense." How is this article NOT an example of that? The people that produce enough to pay for themselves and from a little more to a lot more ARE THE TAXPAYERS. It is taken FROM them and given to the others. The students in the article that worked and studied hard to get good grades were HURT by the ones that didn't. So they began to stop producing good grades because there was no point, no gain for them. You might say that's selfish of them, but why should they? They should give 100% so others can INTENTIONALLY give 0% and gain while the producers lose? This is EXACTLY how socialism works and EXACTLY what it is. You take form the people that produce services and goods (THE ONLY TAXPAYERS) and give to the non taxpayers.

  392. hanchueh

    StevenWellman ErikGruber spitefulspear91919 marcohern No you're confusing two things together. The public education system is socialism, but what happened to this fictional class was not. Just because a fake story says it happens inside a socialist system doesn't mean it is. You can live in a blue state and still be a conservative.

  393. ErikGruber

    StevenWellman ErikGruber spitefulspear91919 marcohern   "It is taken FROM them and given to the others." It is taken from them for service that for the most part they benefit from (i.e. snow plows, police, etc.) We still have system (and so does socialism) where we're benefiting from the amount of work we do. We still collect our wages based on our expertise and quantity of work. The 93% of the country that is employed pay taxes, therefore there aren't a heck of a lot people that aren't paying their way. And again, this redistribution of grades is communist, not socialist. They have no grades to call their own, that's communist. Under socialism I can still have property.

  394. StevenWellman

    nownewstrue No companies have success because they are NOT paying taxes.Did you know that Walmart works off a 1% profit margin? Most companies work with a 5-15% profit margin. They tax rate is 35% on corporations. The money is taxed when it comes in and again when it goes out. They pay taxes on their profits, just like everyone else does. If they pay no taxes THEY HAVE NO PROFITS, either because the company is ran poorly or THEY ARE TRYING TO PAY THEIR EMPLOYEES WHAT IGNORANT PEOPLE THINK THEY SHOULD. If they are overpaying, then the first bump and hundreds to thousands can lose their jobs to cover the loss.. How does this serve? Then you call them selfish for trying to save money. Be realistic, they're the ones that pay for wage, or pay others wages so they can be taken to care for you.

  395. hanchueh

    spooningleads24king ErikGruber newsninja2012 karateman39 Transform what? We're already a socialist democracy. Some of us just don't realize that.

  396. StevenWellman

    SpencerHershberger How do you know it never happened? Do you have proof, or are you making things up to protect your idea of how things should be?

  397. hanchueh

    ErikGruber StevenWellman spitefulspear91919 marcohern A real socialist classroom would work more like this:
    Everyone still gets their grades according to their own performances, but the most successful ones are required to tutor the least ones so that the class as a whole can have better grades.

  398. ErikGruber

    hanchueh ErikGruber StevenWellman spitefulspear91919 marcohern Wow, that's probably the best example yet.

  399. JasonRains

    Oh, where to start?
    1. Socialism means public ownership of industry, not equal distribution of wealth.
    2. Obama's economic policy doesn't entail either of these things. 
    3. This story is made up. I can just as easily make up a story about a wildly successful communist experiment, it doesn't mean anything. It would be–like this story–an ideological fantasy,.

    4. Even if it were true, this is just a large-scale version of the "group project" where the entire group receives the same grade. Do those usually result in Fs for everyone?
    5. One of my favorite paradoxes of conservative logic on display: "If people have to work harder to receive the same reward, they won't work as hard. But if people receive a greater reward for the same amount of work, they won't work as hard." Everything but the status quo makes people work less hard!
    6. Since we're talking about "substituting grades for dollars," what are the real-life monetary equivalents of each grade letter in this allegory? Does $100,000 = an A? $1 million? $1 billion? Is this a metaphor for some imaginary policy that aims to turn billionaires into $50K/year working stiffs, but in practice puts everyone on minimum wage? Someone explain the particulars! I have to know!
    7. Y'all are nuts if you think that the normal classroom model–which is a pure meritocracy, where grades are an infinite resource and your performance in no way affects the grade of anyone else–somehow mirrors capitalism. 
    8. "You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!" Um…yes you can? This is literally what the wealthy do when they invest their money in a broad range of different ventures, rather than concentrate it all in a single money-maker. "Spreading the wealth around," somehow good for the individual but bad for society. 

  400. ScottAro

    StevenWellmanSpencerHershberger  I obviously can't prove that the events in this story have NEVER happened, but I doubt they did.  This story has been around for a VERY LONG TIME – and I've heard it from many sources over the years.  My econ professor at a community college in 1988 gave us this same scenario as an example of the pitfalls of socialism, and the message was just as clear then, as it is now.  No one actually agreed to participate because we were obviously smart enough to know not to trust someone else to take care of us when we were perfectly able to do it ourselves.

    The example is a metaphor – too many are discrediting the relevance because they refuse to see the situation as it is presented.  Grades = Money in this example, and that's it –  this has nothing to do with public education.

  401. pbr277

    JasonRains  you are the exact example of the Low-Information voter. Socialism and Communism are two sides of the same coin. I love how you say you can multiply wealth by dividing it.  I'm pretty sure you don't know the meaning of "diversifying investments". As far as "spreading the wealth around", when you get off of work tonight, could you please sit down and write me a check for $1000. I really didn't feel like working today.

  402. marcohern

    StevenWellman marcohern Im no political pundit or expert but my undestanding is Socialism everyone gets food, house, and education. But if I kcik your ass in a boxing match, I am a better boxer than you! Period! I eat the same as you, I have a house just like you, and I am educated like you, but I am still a better boxer than you! I am no better or worse person than you, I just happen to be a better boxer! So if I also happens that I have higher grades in math, I may be even a better mathematician than you! AGAIN I have a house, you have a house! I eat food, you eat food! I get no less or more just because I had your ass handed to you… like I just did.

  403. ryankarl39

    hanchueh ErikGruber spitefulspear91919 marcohern  

    National Socialist German Workers' Party is a gleaming example of how socialism works.

  404. ErikGruber

    ryankarl39 hanchueh ErikGruber spitefulspear91919 marcohern Right, because the Nazis are the last thing associated with socialism. (That's sarcasm, they aren't the last thing associated with communism). Japanese American internment camps are probably the way you would show how republic works, right?

  405. StevenWellman

    1. Who decides who gets what from the industry? If it's publicly owned, shouldn't all of the public benefit? What happens when the public gets greedy?

    2. Obama has said several times, "The rich need to pay their fair share." How is that not taking from them to give to the "societal good"?

    3. How do you know the story is made up? I'm not saying it is or isn't, I'm just asking how you know it is? Using fact here or, "making up a story"? 

    4. There has never been a group project like this. Groups usually attract like people. Over achievers group up with other overachiers. If you put an entire class, overachievers and underachievers, together you don't know what would happen. There are MILLIONS of groups that fail because of one or two people. BAD POINT.

    5. How is this a paradox? It's scientifically proven. Human nature is to be lazy and the vast majority of people, if they could work less and make the same they would. EVERYONE gets complacent, that's the SAME POINT. Science says you're wrong, unless science isn't valid when it's working against you. My favorite liberal paradox is that free market is greedy. Under the free market you can't wake up and deiced you want to carve 8' eagles out of trees and sell them for 1 million dollars, because no one will buy them. You have a make a product/service that your neighbor NEEDS and charge what HE is willing to pay. The free market forces businesses to focus on other people.

    6. This point shows you're not serious about this topic. You're just trying to be abusive and ignorant. Really classy. Strong show of character.

    7. The idea of capitalism is the more value you learn to add and the more value you bring the better you can do. The classroom is the PERFECT example of capitalism. Your sucess or failure is COMPLETELY based on what you do, what others do HAS NOTHING to do with your grade. 

    8. This is a grossly misrepresented point. The wealthy invest their money in different WINNING ventures that succeed and make money. If they are dividing and giving the money people that will produce with it I agree with you. You can't use wealthy making investments as a correlation to redistributing wealth. Really? You use that an example? Make sure your brain is engaged before using your keyboard!

    9. I refer to your/my point 3.

  406. spitefulspear91919

    StevenWellmanJasonRains"The idea of capitalism is the more value you learn to add and the more value you bring the better you can do"
    the only thing in that massive denial that actually made sense.

  407. gburg61

    the idea of socialism is giving everyone an education??? ussr is "union of soviet socialist republic"!!! communism is socialism…the US has been becoming a socialist nation since the early 1900's.
    incrementally our individual liberty(the idea that each person can do whatever they like without taking anothers rights away)has been chipped away. crimes against the state such as drugs,epa regulation,IE victimless crimes are rampant. The tax rate of an unmarried male making a decent living is %50. If you try harder and make more money you are penalized. If you attempt to open a business you are destroyed with govt requirements. DO BETTER and get less is the lesson in this video. You really need to look at economics 101 cause I do not think you understand ANYTHING

  408. gburg61

    StevenWellman JasonRains
    STEVEN you are wrong wrong wrong…in trying to explain human nature to this group of high scholl graduates…our founders knew about human nature so they TRIED to harness it with our constitution…not one of the bill of rigts stands today not one…very sad…I feel your frustration but it is a waste of time

  409. gburg61

    JasonRains would you walk down the street with a gun and go to your rich neibors house knock on the door and demand money??NO?? but you would vote for a candidate who says you need healthcare that someone else should pay for? or better schools even if your neigbor has no kids??more cops on the street even though violent crime is non existent compared to 30 years ago?? we have 2 times as many of the population in jail today though. how did that happen? legall robbery through socialism

  410. StevenWellman

    ErikGruber StevenWellman spitefulspear91919 marcohern 48% of the country DOESN'T pay taxes. If you're going to spout numbers and facts, use pertinent ones, not the ones you can skew to your purpose.

  411. StevenWellman

    spitefulspear91919 StevenWellman JasonRains Did you know that most of 1% ARE LIBERALS??? The greedy capitalistic pigs you seek to punish are in fact Democrats. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Google founders, GE. I could keep going. You don't need to convince the conservatives to give up there money, it's the liberals you need to convince.

  412. spitefulspear91919

    Socialism is the step between Freedom and Communism. We are almost there=)
    Socialists are  tools, to be blunt. The idea of socialism is that "utopian wonderland" for workers, and it sounds wonderful for the lazy and poor.  But again, Socialists are tools for Communists pulling the strings. Once they achieve that socialist state, the people are too docile to care and then you have the soviet union all over again.
    If you think the gameplan stops at "just socialism" then you are living in a dreamworld. America is the last bastion of hope for true freedom on the planet and there are a lot of people trying to tear us down with this socialism nonsense. If for some reason socialism advances too far, there are those of us who will stop it. It will never happen

  413. ErikGruber

    StevenWellman spitefulspear91919 JasonRains If you recall, Warren Buffet said something like "Take my money, I should pay more."

  414. JasonRains

    StevenWellman JasonRains   I appreciate that you took the time to reply to my points. 

    1. In theory, yes, in a socialist society the entire society profits from industry. But my point here is not that socialism is good or bad, just that this story doesn't accurately describe socialism. 

    2. Yeah, Obama has said that, but that's advocating a progressive tax system, not a socialist economy. They aren't the same thing, no matter how much some conservative commentators would like them to be. He also isn't referring to totally equitable distribution–he isn't even talking about taxing the rich to the point where they aren't rich. That's two layers of misrepresentation that this anecdote has to go through to make its point.

    3. The conspicuous lack of any verifying/verifiable details tipped me off, but there's also this:&nbsp ; If you scroll down in the comments, you'll see the moderator of the site admitting that the story is a fabrication (but arguing that "the results are true," whatever that means). 

    4. Yeah, but there are also tons of group projects that succeed on the backs of one or two members. When I was placed in a group project as an undergrad, I always worked harder than on my own individual projects, because I knew that more work would be required for the same A. I hated group projects for this reason–but again, I'm not advocating that society actually be based on this model, I'm just saying that reality doesn't necessarily reflect the results that this fictional experiment claims to have produced. 

    5. I get all that–as a business owner myself, I totally understand the need to find a balance between what I want to do and what the folks who pay the bills will go for. I have to say, though, I don't agree that human nature is to be lazy–if it was, how did we ever get so much done? If not working is in our nature, why did we set up a system that depends on a whole lot of people doing a whole lot of work? I think it's in human nature to create and explore. And I don't know that science can ever objectively prove any claims about human nature. When you're talking about folks working a mindless job with low pay and little opportunity for advancement, then yeah, the incentive in that particular situation becomes to do as little as you can get away with, but I honestly believe the average person wants to do MORE than that, not less. Surely you don't always do the bare minimum, do you?

    6. I didn't mean to come across as abusive, but I do think this is a very "loose" allegory that doesn't make much of an effort to equate its own terms to real-world conditions. What stands for what, beyond grades = money? I think the analogy starts to break down if you start assigning real values to those grades, especially if those values reflect the actual distribution of wealth in society–the distribution of grades is inevitably going to be much more linear, and thus not problematic in the way that progressives view the distribution of wealth as problematic. 

    7. I just don't agree with this assessment of capitalism at all. Nobody operates in a vacuum like this, it's imaginary thinking–can't you think of ways that the actions of others can alter your financial situation for better or worse, with no change in effort on your part? Like, dozens of ways, just off the top of your head?

    8. Maybe I overreached a little with this point, but I only meant to push back against the implication that overall capital can't be increased by the decentralization of capital (which is what the phrase I responded to is essentially saying).

  415. JasonShoup

    gburg61 JasonRains   I'm happy to pay for more cops because that way, people don't walk down the street with a gun, come to my house, and demand money.  I'm happy to contribute to healthcare so I don't go broke paying a doctor's bill for a broken leg.  And while I don't have kids yet, I'm happy to help pay for schools because I don't like living in a country of idiots.  I mean, wouldn't you like to have paid a bit more and received some better lessons in how to write and think?  I think that money would have been very well spent.

  416. carlismith123

    marcohernStevenWellmanRight but socialism implies that, yes, you both still have a house, and food. But despite being a better boxer, you still have the same house and food as the guy whose ass you just kicked. So you worked out more hours and took more training to become a better boxer, beat the other guy, and now your reward is telling yourself you're a better boxer.

  417. dbackscott

    ErikGruber StevenWellman spitefulspear91919 JasonRains 

    Warren Buffet was being a blow-hard tool when he said this.  There's nothing stopping him from giving as much money as he wants to the government.  What he was really saying is "Force all of us to give up more of our money."

    Besides, he was talking about personal income tax.  He doesn't have much in the way of personal income.  Everything he earns is tax-sheltered in a corporation he set up for himself.

  418. slowhoa

    The socialism is like a young poisonous snake and communist is mature snake, all are poisonous. However, the most communist covered up by socialism, because people don't want to be congregated the asset into the hand of  communist.
    In the early stage of communist movement at Vietnam, after found the Vietnam communist party on February 3, 1930, people feared and rejected, so in 1946, Ho Chi Minh disbanded party then placed a new name" Marxism studying club", but the communist was still remaining inside, the membership increased from 5,000 in 1946, and in 1951 was 760,000. This year, Ho Chi Minh revived communist party with a new name" the workers party". After Geneva convention 1954, Ho Chi Minh opened the invasion to South Vietnam, so the Workers party had another name" People revolution party". And after Saigon failed in 1975, the winner taken its real name" Vietnam communist party".
    It is a lesson that the innocent Western state people  need to learn, the most socialists have not confirm as communist, but they are. But they cheat people by the social reform as health care and also using the tax as weapon to beat the capitalist

  419. Evantime

    Yeah, that "socialistic" nation of Canada is a real-world example of how horrific life can be.
    Imagine: a strong economy, no real estate crash, no bank bailouts, the poor actually earn a wage enough that they can live on (though barely–there's talk of raising minimum wages), and all that socialized health care that lets people get all the medical care they need without ever declaring bankruptcy. Being the highest educated people on the planet, you'd think they'd know better than to let such horrible things happen.
    "Socialist" agenda's are dangerous and destructive. Poor Canada–somebody needs to help them!

  420. Dontbeblindedbyredor

    Evantime Canada has many products in which they export which are also valuable (I'm speaking about natural resources, they drill, deforest and exploit everywhere which we do not on a scaled basis).  Additionally, they are very dependent upon us, their largest trade partner, to continuously consume more than we create.  So to a point, they're largely dependent upon us working as hard as we do and benefit from our prosperity because they're figuring out ways to capitalize on it more so than they had in the past.  By the way, if you have ever lived in a nation with socialized medicine, you'll realize two things: one is that the care gets worse because you have to prioritize illnesses (imagine everywhere you go its like an ER, if you don't have a life threatening illness, it'll take two hours at least to just talk to someone and then longer to get treated), and second, it ensures that the wealthy continue to have even better coverage because those that succeed in medical school will command high rates in specialized medicines just like they are beginning to now and we will run short of general practitioners, just like we are now.  If you don't have the ability to provide healthcare, why are you forcing everyone to buy it?  Those doctors who receive low wages as a result of these socialized medicine measures will move out to countries that offer higher wages like the exodus of medical care workers from Greece that is currently plaguing the country and destroying even more so than it already is.  With the affluence boom in many emerging countries like China there will be an even higher demand for better care.  So regarding your last line, Canada was poor, but we helped them.  You can thank the people of the US for subsidizing their prosperity with our massive consumption.

  421. KeithDavidson

    SmaugTheTerrible Are you sure you don't qualify for being the lowest common denominator, since about 80% of everything you posted here is nauseatingly redundant and the other 20% is in fact the very circular reasoning of which you repeatedly have spoken? Not to mention of course the fact that the whole load of crap you laid down leads to no stated conclusion, but instead to your impotent attempt at an insult, making you no better and certainly no smarter than those of us whom you have so desperately and so futilely attempted to convince of your self-imagined intellectual superiority, as well as the very obvious fact that you have completely ignored, or perhaps in total ignorance have missed the base point of this article, as so many others have and yet cannot resist the temptation to demonstrate that academic success does not necessarily indicate intelligence but rather shows clearly that to gain such success one must sacrifice common sense. Aside from that, you'll have to point out to me in the article or anywhere in the subsequent comments where it was stated or even remotely suggested that capitalism is fail-proof at all, let alone just because Stalinism/Socialism has failed. I must have missed that, or maybe you think it's ok for you to assume such a thing while at the same time berating those whom you accuse of being overly assumptive. Hypocrite much?

    And I too am getting tired; tired of dealing with people who have no real valuable input that means anything to anyone but themselves, thus posting comments in a sweaty frenzy of pathetic and pity inducing mental masturbation. You should know a couple of things since you fancy yourself to be of such high-powered logic.

    First, "socialism versus capitalism" is not a false dilemma since a) we have witnessed the failure of socialism right here in America with Detroit, Michigan being all but dead due to an experiment in socialist-democracy, (like mixing oil and water) when 50 years ago it was the richest most productive city in the entire country until the socialist Democrats injected their policies into governance and gave mob-like power to the unions and b) we are witnessing the adverse effects of socialist policy on a much larger scale now with the current administration.

    Secondly, a 100% historical failure rate is hardly an unnecessary projection of future expectation, but provides valid reason to believe in the likelihood of failure. Especially since you can look at current examples of the failure of socialism in countries like Greece which is barely hanging on and would be gone if not for the assistance of Germany and other country's bail-out plans. Bail-out plans which I believe have accomplished nothing more than to buy Greece a little more time to anticipate their ultimate economic demise. A lot like the stimulus plans of George W. Bush and Barack Obama which may have bought more time, but have only served to exacerbate the situation. And then conversely you see surging economies in countries like say China, that are historically socialist or communist (or since you're so obsessive-compulsive about such things, we'll say "non-capitalist") but have introduced free-market policies allowing for private ownership, business and commerce. But I'll sum it all up by giving you the benefit of the doubt in guessing that you have missed my several previous statements saying the article may be allegorical, or even, if you wish, entirely false, but rather that it is not intended to be a lesson in economics but more a study in human behavior; that being, the undeniable fact that when one half of the population increasingly realizes that they are supporting the other half and that the fruits of their labor will be confiscated, they will conclude that no matter how hard they work, they will never succeed. They will then inevitably lose their inclination to continue doing so. They will become the other half. It is by design an unstable paradigm and will collapse.

    So as you see, your would-be prowess in logic turns out to be nothing more than a ridiculous regurgitation of academic memorization, as if you were projectile vomiting the very pages of the books you weaponized to kill whatever common sense you may have had prior to earning your degree from "Bob's Online University's School of Phony Logic and Imagined Critical Thinking Skills to Impress Your Single Digit IQ Friends".

    You should go back to your Command Center in mom's basement. Knock back another Red Bull, grab a Hot-Pocket or two and inventory your comic book collection, boy. You're boring me and everyone else on this page. And don't bother responding. I refuse to continue trying to match wits with an unarmed person.

  422. ErikGruber

    dbackscott ErikGruber StevenWellman spitefulspear91919 JasonRains Well the federal government can't just accept more money, it has to implemented. Unless I missed the check box in TurboTax that says "Give More Money To The Government" And he wasn't talking about just personal tax he was talking about all of his taxes, business and personal alike.

  423. Dontbeblindedbyredor

    Most of these stories are untrue.  They're always littered with hidden objective.  However the messages to provide much food for thought.  Additionally, one must think about how we would react if social programs actually meant doing something for someone else other than telling some arbitrary government agency to just take it out of your paycheck and throw money at it which is what we have done lately (last 50 years).  It's somewhat humorous to see how the northeast states with the most liberal minded people regarding such policy about helping people are actually the least likely to donate money to people in need and the more likely to donate to help people are in the conservative southeast and some mid-continent states.  Something not of discussion is the disparity of income between the two which I think would create and even deeper conversation.  But would the argument be if the taxes are less it results in people contributing more?  Easily not (Louisiana has a 9% income tax rate and Massachusetts has a 6% for example).  This article gives the statistics on the northeast liberals donating less of their income to causes than the conservative southeast, and by a huge margin.  I'm not saying anything either way about one or the other and the titles I am using are titles I've picked up in every day life having lived in both regions.  I'm not going one way or the other on this, just think that sometimes if we remembered where we came from and come from now, we'd understand it all a bit more.

  424. KeithDavidson

    hanchueh Hey Doof! You're all proud of your Snopes discovery. Did you read the lead comment by the moderator? No. You didn't.

    hanchueh: "Der!! I'm a progressive, everybody. I am smart! I am smart! S.M.R.T. D'oh! I mean S.M.A.R.T."

  425. Evantime

    Dontbeblindedbyredorblue Evantime  Wow. "Aren't we great–if it wasn't for the USA, Canada would be poor."
    Where do you get your information? Good grief!
    I HAVE lived in a country with socialized medicine. What you state is total fiction. I don't have to speak from theory or opinion. The smear campaigns those opposed to universal health care have done are created by cherry-picking the very worst examples they could find and then depicting them as the norm. Universal health care rocks. And that's not just from my opinion–the CIA Fact Book and US HSS both say that Canada (and two dozen other countries with socialized medicine) have better quality of health care! Don't take my word for it–I've given the references you can look up! Meantime, half a million Americans go BANKRUPT every year due to health care bills. THAT is "better"?
    As for Canada "drill, deforest and exploit everywhere which we do not on a scaled basis", you need to do some research. For example, Canada has a policy that allows less than 1% of harvestable forests to be cut. Please explain the "scaled basis" to me. I can cite stuff I see around the country that's hardly scaled!
    Canada depending on the American consumer? Who are you kidding! The US-Canada trade relationship is great and offers lots of benefits. But other countries would be happy to step in and leave the American consumer (you know who that is!) high and dry. An example of that was when Canada and the US were having a trade conflict over softwood lumber. Canada contacted China and started discussing oil exports. Suddenly the President got involved directly with Canada's leaders and got the wrinkles ironed out. The sad reality is that Canada has all the aces. Just hope the chain of stuff from there to here doesn't get cut!
    To paraphrase you, only with a bit of reality:
    You can thank the people of Canada for being willing to provide American consumers massive consumption, rather than go to other markets.
    I'm not saying Canada is a utopia and America is bad. I'm just saying that there are lessons to be learned everywhere, and when it comes to economic structure, Canada's "socialized" style is kicking butt.

  426. gburg61

    Evantime Dontbeblindedbyredorblue oh yes the cia fact book??? and other agencies of govt say govt health care is GREAT!! my you are a deep thinker. yes thousands are streaming over the border for the groundbreaking discoveries of canadian medicine……the remnants of a free market that are left here will be gone soon,,what will people like you do then? you cannot rape the RICH forever

  427. DonSwitzer

    So everything has to go exactly as the writer says. There are too many assumptions!!! Some students will rebel and stop it after they get hurt by bad grades.  Who likes mediocrity?

  428. Lucas101

    This article would be more credible if the professor noticed that he was talking about Communism, not Socialism. As it is, if an econ professor can't tell the difference between the two (no matter your politics), he's probably not a good professor to begin with.

  429. SmaugTheTerrible

    KeithDavidson SmaugTheTerrible I'm only going to respond to two of the things you said, my rotund pal, because they're comical.

    "Not to mention of course the fact that the whole load of crap you laid down leads to no stated conclusion."

    Information and logic is only valid if it leads to a conclusion, even if the information doesn't lead to one definite superior conclusion? You're a zealot. It's like you'e religious but with no mention of god. You want people to take sides and then support their conclusions, rather than the correct way of analyzing information (which is to form conclusions based on the information(. You have nothing much to add here, a conclusion which I'll support with my second quote. 

    ""academic success does not necessarily indicate intelligence but rather shows clearly that to gain such success one must sacrifice common sense."

    BWAHAHAHA. Things stupid people say to make up for their glaring dunning-kruger. 

    Peace fat man.

  430. KeithBarber1

    Quote:  "Can you think of a reason for not sharing this on Twitter or Facebook?  Neither could I."  

    Well I could.  The entire story is a lie and I desire that my Facebook and Twitter friends regard me as credible.  You appear to operate free of such concerns.

  431. Robertocarlosaprea

    Se esta cometiendo un error en cuanto a la valora cion de 'riqueza", no es infinita, el dinero no es la riqueza sino una representacion de la energia que se dispone. Sabido es que la energia produce trabajo y el trabajo genera energia, por ende son magnitudes intercambiables que hasta se miden con las mismas unidades.  Pues bien, la energia disponible es finita, alcanza sobradamente para todos los habitantes del planeta, pero si unos pocos se arrogan mucha entonces quedan migajas para la mayoria. Piensenlo.

  432. hanchueh

    thehouseofdon Lucas101 The example in the article is pure communism and not socialism, where private ownership is allowed. Do you even known what socialism is?

  433. KeithBarber1

    newsninja2012Here's the problem.  This flat out fabircation was presented here as a true story, As the "documented facts" that assassinate liberal lies.  This is, as is now clear, a flat out conservative lie.  The story is not true.  Nor is the story even plausible to anyone with a brain.  The notion that the students would universally react in such a fashion is flat out nuts.  They are individuals and do things different.  The suggestion that the professor could get away with flunking an entire class as part of his own ideologically based "experiment" is sheer idiocy.  

    Please don't ask me to check my brain in at the door to talk about this and don't try to pass off complete lies as "scenarios."  That's just baloney

  434. hanchueh

    Dontbeblindedbyredorblue Actually, liberals and conservatives donate about the same out of their income to charities. They just donate to different kinds of charities (liberal to secular charities and conservatives to religious ones). Both kinds of charities help people.

  435. KeithBarber1

    StevenWellmanSpencerHershbergerLOL, this website claims to present the  "documented facts."  So where's the documentation this did happen?  Your entire reasoning is backasswards.

  436. Reverend Draco

    ErikGruberReverend Draco 
    A 2012 report, in the MSM, from the California State University and University of California systems. According to their figures, 70-75% of all HS graduates are in need of remedial reading (AKA functionally illiterate), and 80% are in need of remedial math (AKA innumerate). These are average figures taken from HS graduates of every state (for example, in FL, it's only 40% illiteracy – In NY, it's over 75%).
    It's amazing, the things one can learn when they're not busy spewing nonsense. I suggest you give it a try.

  437. hanchueh

    pbr277 JasonRains They're not two sides of the same coin. Communism is the extreme form of socialism, just like how corruption is the extreme form of capitalism.

  438. KeithBarber1

    newsninja2012KeithBarber1This is like saying the "results" of a ghost story are "factual."  There are no results.  Nothing happened to produce results.  For their to be an effect there must be a cause and the cause must be real.  Lies don't produce results.  

    In context website falsely claimed to present this as a "documented fact."  That is a lie.  Perhaps the title to the website should be changed to say something like  "Using strawman arguments to assassinate caricatures of liberal arguments with totally made up bullshit of our own."  Of course, that does seem less effective, but it would have the charm of being far more honest.  

    You seem to think made up "scenarios" (bet you call them lies when liberals do them) are "documented facts."  They aren't.  Further, claiming that idiot assumptions of how students would react to such arbitrary insanity (imposing his own political views on them through grade terrorism) from a professor is just flat out fantasy stupidity.  

    If you want commit yourself to documented facts, then I encourage you to do so, and abandon self serving made up "scenarios" that are really just lies for your cause.

  439. hanchueh

    StevenWellman spitefulspear91919 JasonRains Warren Buffet proposed that he should pay more taxes. The liberals brought the bill to a vote in Congress, and guess who shut it down? The conservative GOP Congress!

  440. jabberwocky12

    pbr277 JasonRains and you are the exact example of a brainwashed Fox News Junkie, who can't tell the difference between communism and socialism, and who also can't substantiate any of his claims with cold hard, unbiased evidence

  441. Reverend Draco

    hanchuehErikGruberReverend Draco 
    In 1850, Massachusetts was 91%-98% literate. Between 1800 and 1840, literacy in the "Union" states increased from a 75% rate to 90% – the Confederate states saw an increase from 60% literacy to 80% during the same period.

    Thank Horace Mann and the Prussian Industrial Model for the collapse of US education.

  442. hanchueh

    ryankarl39 hanchueh ErikGruber spitefulspear91919 marcohern  That's the 1922 version. The current version is the Social Democratic Party of Germany, and they produced 9 out of the 16 prime ministers of Germany. They clearly work.

  443. MikeOrowitz

    "An economics professor at a local college…"  

    What local college?   Who is the professor?  When did this experiment occur?

    The principles are sound, but is this a true story?     
    There are plenty of documented problems with Socialism and Communism without the need to use fake stories to prove a point.

  444. ErikGruber

    StevenWellman ErikGruber spitefulspear91919 JasonRains At what point did he refuse to pay more taxes?

  445. BrandonCay

    LOL THE EXPERIMENT FAILED because the EXPERIMENT only suggest that this will happen.  NON  FACTUAL.  PROVEN FACT is not all MIDDLE CLASS and POOR are LAZY.  Just like Not all WEALTHY INVESTORS made they wealth through HARD WORK.  EXAMPLE: INHERITANCE, PARIS HILTON and SHE IS LAZY, just to NAME one.  So this EXPERIMENT FAILED due to not Exposing all ASPECTS of LIFE.  Yes there is LAZY people in this WORLD of all ETHINCS.  BUT GREED HAS NO COLOR.  OBAMA is just trying to make it fair for those HARD WORKERS to gain a FOOT HOLD THROUGH their hard work.  YET you have 99% of republican's calling people lazy but YET BROHNER is on VACATION the most of the YEAR just like GEORGE BUSH JR.  WHO is a IDIOT KNOWN FACT and WAR CRIMINAL and WANTED, GOOGLE IT. 



  446. GarrettStaats

    BrandonCay  I'd never had a chance to reply with a post with just a quote from a movie. Besides  the fact that your grammar and punctuation made my brain want to leak our of my ears, I offer you this.

    " Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

  447. JimSnape

    Lucas101  I can't tell the difference either. But Rand explains it best:

    1. What Is the Basic Issue in the World Today?
        The basic issue in the world today is between two principles:  Individualism and Collectivism. 
        Individualism holds that man has inalienable rights which cannot be taken away from him by any other man, nor by any number, group or collective of other men. Therefore, each man exists by his own right and for his own sake, not for the sake of the group. 
        Collectivism holds that man has no rights; that his work, his body and his personality belong to the group; that the group can do with him as it pleases, in any manner it pleases, for the sake of whatever it decides to be its own welfare. Therefore, each man exists only by the permission of the group and for the sake of the group. 
        These two principles are the roots of two opposite social systems. The basic issue of the world today is between these two systems.

  448. BobYoung1

    JimSnapeLucas101 Not true. There is also cooperate-ism. Combines the best of individualism and collectivism.

  449. JeffWalters1

    newsninja2012One thing is for certain It has brought all the defenders of Socialism and Communism out of the woodwork. They can't seem to give you one good example of when Communism or Socialism actually worked as a form of Government. ( Unless you believe Cuba is a successful thriving Nation, but if they are why are people still crossing 90 miles of shark infested open water in tiny boats to escape?) Talk about shifting the subject, they want to impugn your education and your intelligence and argue semantics about the literal definitions of Socialism and Communism. But, they don't seem to have an answer when you remind them that 100 million people died unnecessarily in the last century due to failed attempts to impose these systems of Government on resistant populations. This is what's really at stake in this debate, not only that Socialism doesn't work, but that it also kills millions of people.

  450. jabberwocky12

    GarrettStaats BrandonCay Those who cannot reply with an intelligent rebuttal,  argue semantics and grammar errors.  Cool quote, but you need to answer for yourself, and go after the meat of the argument.

  451. tampajason

    jabberwocky12 GarrettStaats BrandonCay He had no argument. He has no idea of what the Republican party is about or how economics works for that matter. He's been drinking the Obama cool-aid and only when he grows up and realizes he's a taxpayer and not a tax-receiver will he change his attitude.

  452. TrevorJon

    What is the prime example of effective capitalism? One would logically start with the US, yet here we are……

  453. JasonRains

    gburg61 JasonRains Some of that is a little incoherent (what does my neighbor not having kids have to do with anything?), but I actually do kind of see what you're saying. But there's a big difference between "You, give me your money" and "Since we're voting on it, I vote that we do things this way." And yeah, our democratic process has a serious accountability problem, that's a whole issue unto itself–to me, it's a bigger issue than any right/left debate. But in a functional democracy, policies like progressive taxation are only coercive if you disagree with democracy in principle.

  454. ganon842

    tampajason jabberwocky12 GarrettStaats BrandonCay Just like to point out that it's spelled Kool-Aid

  455. TrevorJon

    I can agree that in a lot of these scenarios it is a learned behavior from parents (Which stems from lack of any civil rights until 50 years ago. Kinda hard to jump up to par in barely a generation haha). My point is only that the likelihood of the hardest working individuals from these less affluent environments acquiring success is still a tiny fraction of the chance that the least motivated individuals have of acquiring that same success.
    Unless that statement can be adequately and accurately rebutted, something is wrong with how and whom our system benefits.

  456. JasonRains

    JimSnape Lucas101 I don't know that I've ever seen a false dichotomy, a straw man argument, and two logical non sequiturs all together in a block of text that short.

  457. KennethArmstrong

    I should clarify the bell curve is socialism the highest scorers get a's the lowest scorers get f's based on the difficulty of the test given.  so most of the students end up with c's.  What the story above describes is communism.

  458. ned46

    This grading system clearly shows that at its simplest form, socialism is ineffective and has its flaws. However, you are comparing a "socialist" grading system, to an established grading system that has been perfected over decades of higher education testing and grading. I am not denying that the "socialist" grading system leads to an unsuccessful outcome and results in little productivity, but lets compare this ineffective "socialist" system to the current capitalist system and resulting inequality that dominates our country (substituting grades for dollars – something closer to home and more readily understood by all of course). 

    Lets say that the class had 100 students in it, directly translating the percentages for grades and percentage of wealth, there would be 1 SINGLE STUDENT who would be able to earn the grade A, B, or C, or D, or even F. This is because that single student would have the top 40% of the grades owned by them alone, regardless of what their fellow classmates earned, and by applying the generally excepted rule of thumb that 65% or below is failing, would as a result be eligible to earn every single letter grade that is available for every other student to earn. And what happens to the other 99 students of the class? They would receive a grade below 60%, which is usually an F and failing (unless the humorous concept of F+ or F- would like to be adopted in order to prevent everyone from receiving an "F"). 

    The "capitalist" grading system has been laid and has been presented by accounting for current inequality in America (just as the "socialist" grading system was presented by accounting for its universal equality concept). When comparing the "capitalist" grading system to the established grading system, you clearly see that the established grading system of receiving the grade that you earn is clearly a better choice (just as the established grading system was proven to be a better option than the "socialist" one in the article above). However, lets now compare the "capitalist" grading system to the "socialist" grading system. They clearly have the exact same outcome, EXCEPT (of course) that in the "capitalist" system there is 1 passing student, while all other students fail. Is this truly the goal and driving force behind capitalism? To be that 1 single student so that you do not fail like the rest of your 99 other classmates? Socialism is bad, there is no denying that fact, however, it is about time that we realize that a capitalist economy with insane levels of inequality is just as bad as a socialist one. While both concepts begin at opposite ends of the political and economic spectrum, they coincidentally both result in an ineffective and unproductive outcome.

  459. tpstps

    slowhoa L-O-L pls get info. you be hella misinformed. 
    p.s. your only point had no relevance. Great, Ho Chi Minh era Vietnam put make-up on the name of their political regime… IF THEY WERE COMMUNIST BUT DIDNT EXPLICITLY STATE IT, THEN I CAN APPLY THEIR POLITICAL STATUS TO ANYONE WITH UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE… because that connection is totally legitimate..

    ALSO, please stop being such a western-centric thinker. It very condescending to the rest of the world.

  460. tootallsix7_rob

    KennethArmstrongbell curve is only used when the teacher fails to properly teach the majority of the class the lesson…some of the students will do good on the test,as the ability of that student to learn is greater,,not all students learn at the same pace…hence the need for the bell curve…

  461. tootallsix7_rob

    most of you are missing the point..this is not about whether the story is real or if the teacher is real..its about what is going on in America as we speak..we created a society of " why should i work hard if the government will give it to me for free"…more and more people are on welfare and or are working the ssi/ssd system at alarming rates..we pay taxes ( just an example of forced wealth distribution with in itself ) to pay for services…not to pay for over bloated politicians paychecks,retirement plans, benefits and perks…and not to give our tax money to other nations or to people who broke our laws and decided to cross the border illegally…

  462. eblan

    tootallsix7_rob Besides that government failed to protect jobs and stimulate creation of new jobs. Well… at least they keep sponsoring corporations happy.

  463. Superabound

    KeithDavidsonslowhoaBecause Jesus was a Socialist and people are following the will and commands of Our Lord Jesus Christ

  464. Superabound

    slowhoaKeithDavidsonCJAlexander Capitalism and Fascism have killed way more than 100 million people.

  465. slowhoa

    Superabound slowhoa KeithDavidson CJAlexander Please read Polska Newspaper of Poland, it released on May 3, 2013. The list of 13 massacres in 20th century, the names of Mao Tse tung, Lenin, Stalin, Kim Il Sung, Ho chi Minh, Pol Pot…with 100 million people killed. In Washington D.C, there is the museum of communist crime…Hitler killed 6 million Jewish.

  466. slowhoa

    KeithDavidson slowhoa The answer being revealed in my first book:" The dark journey: inside the reeducation camps of Vietcong" published in 2010 ( it is available on Amazon, Barn & Noble…hard copy and ebook), I spent 30 years to write and learn English at home. Thank…I wish the west to you and family

  467. mrhag

    Actually Bell curves are used in many many engineering colleges across the country. In these classes, the tests are designed to be very difficult. If people are getting perfect scores, the test was too easy. This allows an all levels of understanding to be observed and then grades are applied after the distribution of understanding is known.

  468. GarrettStaats

    jabberwocky12 GarrettStaats BrandonCay I'm not rebutting anything, I'm simply pointing out that the only reason this person knows how to read is to send out text messages, or something.

  469. GarrettStaats

    Truth_Speaker   It actually did happen- to me at Texas A&M in 1989. I had a Psych professor that did this exact thing to our class and the results were the same, with one exception. The class as a whole made a DEAL with this guy, and IF he had tenure, we would have all failed (or that is what he said). Our grades were restored after the first parent complaints.

  470. GarrettStaats

    Dontbeblindedbyredorblue   It actually did happen- to me at Texas A&M in 1989. I had a Psych professor that did this exact thing to our class and the results were the same, with one exception. The class as a whole made a DEAL with this guy, and IF he had tenure, we would have all failed (or that is what he said). Our grades were restored after the first parent complaints.

  471. GarrettStaats

    Superabound slowhoa KeithDavidson CJAlexander Volcanoes and tsunamis have killed way more than 100 million people. So have cars, jetboats, swimming pools and many inanimate objects. What is your point? If a nice old lady dies walking to church, I can say religion killed her, that doesnt make it true.

  472. ironzo

    eblan The only jobs government creates are government jobs. But, the government CAN stifle job growth in the private sector by over taxing and over regulating small businesses, who are the majority of employers in this country.

  473. GarrettStaats

    ned46 Well, thought out reply, but you imply that the class of 100 may have ONLY and 1% that can make an "A." What if I am in that class and decide that I am going to work hard and be the 2% and my cousin studies with me and we become the 3%? Believe it or not, I CAN choose to be in the top % of the class – it is not determined by God, or the alignment of the stars, or movements of crystals.

  474. GarrettStaats

    Evantime kb7rky   It actually did happen- to me at Texas A&M in 1989. I had a Psych professor that did this exact thing to our class and the results were the same, with one exception. The class as a whole made a DEAL with this guy, and IF he had tenure, we would have all failed (or that is what he said). Our grades were restored after the first parent complaints. I don't recall it being a political presentation, but more of a human-behavior-thing.

  475. SmaugTheTerrible

    JeffWalters1 newsninja2012 Jeff, you still didn't respond to the comment I posted in reply to your IQ. When will you get around to that?

    Furthermore, practical application failure does not mean an idea isn't viable. Rather, the opposite. Practical application failure is new information to apply. This is how we got from non-functional flying machines to the first fixed wing airplane (via the wright brothers) and how we went from candlelight to the lightbulb (via edison). Claiming something is incapable of working because it hasn't worked in the past is short sighted to a high degree especially, as I pointed out earlier, considering that we have technologies and knowledge available to us now that they did not at the time.

  476. KeithBarber1

    GarrettStaatsTruth_SpeakerAn interesting claim Garrett.  I have a degree from Texas A&M in psychology.  I'd love for you to give me the name of the professor since there's a good chance I know him and could talk to him about this and, of course, confirm your story.  So what's his name?

    And why would a psych professor be providing lesson on economics in his class?

  477. JasonRains

    GarrettStaats ned46 That's a nice thought, but the grade distribution in Ned's anecdote does pretty well mirror the actual distribution of wealth in America…in that sense, it's more fact-based than the original story.  It always baffles me how eager some folks are to argue in favor of capitalism in speculative, theoretical terms, when we have results right in front of us to look at!

  478. Truth_Speaker

    My point is still valid. It's a great example of how socialism doesn't work but my point is if this would have happened like it's written it wouldn't have been "some guy" at a "local university". It would have said Professor Todd at TAM.

  479. GarrettStaats

    KeithBarber1 GarrettStaats Truth_Speaker It was sometime between fall of 1989 and fall of 1990. Go ask some of your buddies – this HAS to be in the campus-lore and you, for sure, would know better than me.

    AND if you ARE from the A&M psych program, you would know that more than one of them did this experiment, and not all in the psych department. As a matter of fact, I also had a philosophy TA try this on us when I was a senior, but we all knew how it worked and the class only had like, 15 people in it. Besides, he was a TA, and we knew he couldn't pull it off with the grading.

    I can't believe so many people don't believe it. I hear it was kind of common as far back as the 70's, but you would probably by lynched today.

  480. LaceyPew

    You can not compare apples to oranges! Prof needs to be fired for stupidity for such an extreme example.

  481. KeithBarber1

    GarrettStaatsKeithBarber1Truth_SpeakerYou said it happened to you in your class yet you can't provide to me the professor's name?  Nor is there any explanation for why a psychology professor is providing a partisan lesson in economics.  I'm not interested in "lore" but rather in "documented facts" which is what this blog falsely claims to dwell in.  

    For the record I am aware of no such incident.  I know at one point it as also falsely attributed to the Texas Tech psychology department.  Now the "lore" moves to Texas A&M.

  482. DanielScala

    LaceyPew you're a black moron that would never admit to barack obama being wrong. you voted blindly for him. fuck you.

  483. midwestjim7

    This anecdote is all about makers vs. takers.  Our socialist/communist president has always been a taker, so therefore has no understanding of makers.  His followers are almost cult-like in embracing government as the answer to every question.  Capitalism built this country thru hard work and risk-taking.  Lazy socialists would tear it down thru their ignorance and blind desire for equal outcomes.  This teacher understands the challenge;  his students are emblematic of the masses of takers in our nation.

  484. GarrettStaats

    KeithBarber1 GarrettStaats Truth_Speaker How in the hell am I supposed to remember the name? That is why I gave you the year range and said that you might remember better than me. Did I ever say that it was a partisan lesson? Hell no. As a matter of fact, it was a lesson on human behavior, which I think is QUITE appropriate for a psychology course.

    Sorry I said the word, "lore." But MY documented fact, while not good enough for you, is that I sat my ass in that class and I was there.

    Oh, and just another tidbit, Mr. Knowledge of Everything at A&M, I did participate in PAID experiments while an undergrad all the time and several DID include them asking our about our social and economic political views. So, don't act so surprised that something political might turn up in the study of psychology. If I had the invoices from those experiment sessions, I assure you, I would hand them over to you.

  485. jabberwocky12

    DanielScala LaceyPew My jaw just dropped.  I can't believe what I just read.   Tell me Daniel,  do you use bleach on your KKK robe to get it that sparkling white, or do you dry clean?

  486. GarrettStaats

    KeithBarber1 Truth_Speaker Just because I did not realize that comment of a shared experience required independently verified footnotes doesn't make me a liar.

  487. jabberwocky12

    tootallsix7_rob None of us missed the point. If It was supposed to be a parable, then why wouldn't the author introduce it as such.   The author, Wayne Dupree,  is a self-congratulatory   jackass, who's tagline reads "Assissinating Liberal Lies with documented proof," but ironically posted a  story that is a complete lie.  There was no such teacher or experiment, and Dupree published it under the pretense that it actually happened.  This shows remarkable dishonesty and a disgusting lack of integrity.  Dupree is a liar and a hypocrite, who used sensationalistic tactics to reel in his willing followers.

  488. jabberwocky12

    None of us missed the point. If It was supposed to be a parable, then why wouldn't the author introduce it as such.  Because people on this forum called it out as a lie,  the rest of you tried to cover your asses and claim it as a "parable" or "anecdote."  Sorry, but we're not buying that crap.

     The author, Wayne Dupree,  is a self-congratulatory   jackass, who's tagline reads "Assissinating Liberal Lies with documented proof," but ironically posted a  story that is a complete lie.  There was no such teacher or experiment, and Dupree published it under the pretense that it actually happened.  This shows remarkable dishonesty and a disgusting lack of integrity.  Dupree is a liar and a hypocrite, who used sensationalistic tactics to reel in his willing followers.

  489. SeanBrody

    Truth_Speaker In defense of KeithBarber1  I attend Montclair State and the asshole who did this in my classroom was named Professor Lewis. Shes a black woman. She asked the class if any of us are racist. I was the ONLY student to say no and so she told me that I am lying and that I struggle with my whiteness and privileges. This was about 2 years ago after I complained when she conducted a similar experiment. I went to the school, teacher was terminated, my grade was changed from an F to a C because I told the news I would write the news papers. I'm from Northern NJ and so yes this shit does happen but it only happens when there is a stupid teacher in the classroom. This story is ridiculous, as was my experience, and it proves nothing. Apples to oranges. She was racist. I am not in the least bit!

  490. jabberwocky12

    GarrettStaats Truth_Speaker If it actually happened to you in 1989, then this proof that it had nothing to do with Obama.

  491. TonySuperior

    I'll just write a story on how a dean (no name) from a local college (who cares which one?) failed the entire student body because they couldn't prove that Mitt Romney isn't a robot. Please share as food for thought.

  492. GarrettStaats

    JasonRains GarrettStaats ned46 Not really. If the "insane levels on inequality" existed in hard numbers, as is suggested, you are assuming that 2 classmates and me have absolutely no chance of breaking the 1% barrier. That is the "theoretical" scenario I have for you. Can I break the barrier, if I choose to do so?

  493. GarrettStaats

    jabberwocky12 GarrettStaats Truth_Speaker Of course it did not. And I totally doubt that the professor in question actually mentioned "Obamacare" or "Obama" at all. As I remember it, the result of the experiment had nothing to do with politics at all. Please read my previous posts.

  494. jabberwocky12

    SeanBrody Truth_Speaker KeithBarber1 I was never a victim of a social experiment like this, but my freshmen year of high school I had panic attacks and had to leave.  One of my teachers, who was black, asked me why I was leaving school, and I replied that I was depressed.  He then went on to tell me, in a kind voice, that because I was white, I was therefore privileged and had nothing to be depressed about.   He was a good teacher, but he also made unfair assumptions, and was a bit of a racist himself.

  495. RalfAmok

    JennWhitfordPalumboyes Jenn, truth hurts, the idea that people stateside still believe that socialism and communism is the same… it hurts.

  496. JennWhitfordPalumbo

    GarrettStaatsKeithBarber1Truth_Speaker-You are wasting your time with someone as weak and pathetic as Keith.  The only thing that matters to that putz and others like him, is getting something for nothing.

  497. jabberwocky12

    JennWhitfordPalumbo That seems to be a go to statement with many of you extremists.  "Truth hurts!"  No actually it's the lie that is an affront.  Many of us "pansy ass" liberals as you put it, disproved that this actually happened, yet here you are, another extremist, who uses the same cliche rhetoric because she can't come up with an intelligent response.

  498. lalchi

    My grandparents are from Lithuania and immigrated to the U.S. in the 1950's while the remainder of their families stayed in Lithuania. My grandmother frequently would speak of the widespread poverty during the time that Lithuania was part of the USSR (it's still rebuilding, 20 years later). Now, she frequently says how she's worried for us grandkids and our kids because she sees the road that the country is heading down and knows first-hand what the effects of socialism are.

  499. CharlesWinfield

    It doesn't matter what you think, there is only one fair way to look at what is going on in the U.S.A. Taking from one person and giving it to another is stealing. It is the definition of stealing assuming that the person you're taking from doesn't want you to take their money. Yes, in a perfect world we wouldn't have millions without healthcare and even more in poverty. I think its great that some people's lives will be saved because of obama care, but it  is stealing by definition and it is unconstitutional. It does go against everything america was founded upon and it has shown time and time again that it will cause an eventual devastating economic collapse. Throughout history it has happened time and time again. But what is the fix? Let the unfortunate suffer now, or let EVERYBODY suffer later? Americans have already spoken… we have chosen to help our fellow man at the expense of ourselves, our country, and our historic american way of life. We have chosen to destroy the idea of freedom to help those who can't and who choose not to help themselves… I personally believe in freedom above all things (as if it's your right when you're born or something… lol) but i was outvoted in favor of bondage to the govt… And i'm ok with that because it was america who chose to destroy itself, and its what america voted for. At least we had a say in it.

  500. TinaLutherRoss

    Common tactic of a made up story. An unnamed proffesor at an unnamed school. Local school ? Local to where ? The pictures accompanying the story are obviously not of the teacher or the classroom. At least the two pictures are certainly not the "same" classroom. One is single desk seating with red tile around the walls, the other is lecture hall stadium seating.

       There are no student interviews or comments provided with the story. There is no citing of a local newspaper or news station picking up on this story etc etc. This is why you do not get news from the Internet. Jeeze people use some common sense.

  501. drdude2525

    The results that we see right in front of us are the direct result of government intervention in capitalism. Therefore, keep your peanut butter out of my chocolate.
    What started with the best of intentions has simply been allowed to go too, too far.
    Consider this:
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised
    for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be
    better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral
    busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity
    may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own
    good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of
    their own conscience"

  502. CharlesWinfield

    Here is just a short list of some failed socialist countries to support the fact that it ends in economic destruction.

    People's Democratic Republic of Algeria (15 September 1963 – 1988) Republic of Bolivia (26 September 1969 – 21 August 1971) 
    Burkina Faso (4 August 1984 – 15 October 1987) 
    Union of Burma (4 January 1948 – 2 March 1962) 
    Socialist Republic of the Union of Burma (2 March 1962 – 23 September 1988) 
    Republic of Cape Verde (8 July 1975 – 22 March 1991) 
    State of Comoros (3 August 1975 – 13 May 1978) 
    Republic of Egypt (23 July 1952 – 22 February 1958) 
    Republic of Ghana (6 March 1957 – 24 February 1966), (31 December 1981 – 7 January 2001) 
    People's Revolutionary Republic of Guinea (2 October 1958 – 3 April 1984) 
    Republic of Guinea-Bissau (24 September 1973 – 17 February 2000) 
    Republic of Indonesia (18 August 1945 – 12 March 1967) 
    Republic of Iraq (14 July 1958 – 8 February 1963) 
    Libyan Arab Republic (1 September 1969 – 2 March 1977) 
    Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya (2 March 1977 – 2011) 
    Democratic Republic of Madagascar (21 December 1975 – 19 August 1992) 
    Republic of Mali (20 July 1960 – 19 November 1968) 
    United Mexican States (5 February 1917 – 1 December 2000) 
    Republic of Nicaragua (18 July 1979 – 25 April 1990) 
    Republic of Panama (11 October 1968 – 31 July 1981) 
    Republic of Peru (3 October 1968 – 30 August 1975) 
    Democratic Republic of São Tomé and Príncipe (12 July 1975 – 3 April 1991) 
    Republic of Senegal (6 September 1960 – 1 April 2000) 
    Republic of Seychelles (5 June 1977 – 26 July 1992) 
    Spanish Republic (14 April 1931 – 15 July 1939) 
    Democratic Republic of Sudan (25 May 1969 – 10 October 1985) Republic of Suriname (25 February 1980 – 25 January 1988) 
    Republic of Tanganyika (9 December 1962 – 26 April 1964) 
    Republic of Uganda (15 April 1966 – 25 January 1971) 
    Union of African States (23 November 1958 – 1962) 
    United Arab Republic (22 February 1958 – 28 September 1961) 
    Yemen Arab Republic (27 September 1962 – 22 May 1990) 
    Republic of Zambia (24 October 1964 – 2 November 1991) 
    People's Republic of Zanzibar and Pemba (12 January – 26 April 1964)

  503. ethossucks

    Evantime Dontbeblindedbyredorblue Interesting, Strawman arguments aside you still have not succeeded in convincing me that socialist countries with resources that exceed their population are not dependent on capitalist nations that provide a market. The previous argument of dontbeblindedbyredorblue simplifies the capitalist market by only refering to the US for canadian trade while china also fits the category of capitalism specified by the writer. Your argument can then be translated into the fact that if the US refuses to do trade they'll find another capitalist nation. Very logical but you just refinforce the point that socialist countires are dependent on capitalist ones and only as long as their resources sustain them. The greed of the US makes our national resources less then marketable which is why our nation imports much more than we export. We are NOT a stable nation. Canada has done a great thing by creating a socialist medical system that does not create a hole in their fiscal infrastructure, WE HAVEN'T. There is a difference between forward sighted implementation of a system built on a stable system and the US Obamacare that offers short term benefits for a majority but creates an unstable system for the future. There are many lacking points in the US socialist implementation of healthcare. 1: The primary aspect of cost in the US healthcare system is pharmaceuticals. This department has NEVER lost a single government hearing. If you think that liberal thought has a hold on the government you got nothing on this private sector. It is unlikely that pharmaceuticals will ever be socialized and simply drains involuntary resources from one private sector into another likely at the expense of the lower and middle class (yes government spending does come from somewhere). other points include the demand of the US exceeding our supply and our supposed "assumed quality of life" will never allow us to make the changes needed to implement a stable socialist system like other nations, theres too much bureaucracy. And even if we did so it would simply make us dependent to another capitalist nation like canada is now and will remain (assuming we get some exports to trade out of thin air to exceed our imports). The end result will still be the same. When one nation has all others as a dependent that nation will be a capitalist country and all your ethos arguments in the world are not going to argue with the logos that that nation can do whatever the hell they want at the expense of all others and, being captitalist, they probably will. In direct response however, yes, canada is doing good, as long as they still hold those aces ay

  504. BrandonDelfuego

    I don't think this story takes into consideration that we don't need every human being to work in order for us to survive. It take 2% of the population to produce all our food. Another 2% is in our bloated military. 1 (one) human being is capable of towing 55,000 pounds of goods. I get the message and I certainly support it, but there are other factors.

  505. LumpySpacePrincess

    KeithBarber1 GarrettStaats Truth_Speaker In Garret's defense, I graduated December of '09. That was only four years ago. I only can remember the name of one professor whose class I took! That's it. One. I can imagine I won't remember any in about 10 years. So get off your high horse. The fact that he can't remember a name from 25 years ago does not prove that he didn't take that class. You might as well ask him what his final grade was for proof.

  506. JefferyScism

    You can not excel if the best possible result is "average". The problem with socialism is you soon run out of other people's grades.

  507. BrandonCay

    To be honest with all you.   You all understood exactly what I said and who cares about SPELLING and GRAMMER due to mostly TYPE-O's.  Sad thing is your only argument was about my GRAMMER and not about what I said which proves more that you guys are just THE WRONG PEOPLE TO BE REPSPRESENTING OUR COUNTRY.  HATED SUCH AS YALL is SAD AND MAKE YOU ALL LOOK LIKE MORONS.  GOD DONT LIKE UGLY but yet I can honestly say.  You guys are not true Christians when you never try to see others views but want to control them.  GOOD SURVIVING in this world when it truly comes down to, REGUARDLESS of your MILITARY BACKGROUND.  Seen a lot of them FALL NEEDLESSLY SUPPORTING REPUBLICANS WARS and sadly again they give you NOTHING and you still SUPPORT THEM.  I GAIN A LOT FROM OBAMA, SORRY YOUR HATER ASSES are getting left in the COLD.  WHETHER you understand this or NOT I CARE LESS I MADE MYPOINT.GarrettStaatsjabberwocky12BrandonCay

  508. newsninja2012

    TinaLutherRoss OK Tina fine but what about the story itself? It's like a democrat/liberal to dismiss the framework of the story. Obama makes up stories everyday "have a healthplan, doctor, you can keep it" Your statement is void.

  509. JefferyScism

    BrandonDelfuego The  thing about socialism is it is designed on the backs of the productive, it depends on MAXIMUM production because it has a built in BURDEN to support the non-productive. When those who produce are outnumbered by those who do not, it is time to calculate the diminishing returns. Take the incentive out of producing MORE than you gain, and you soon produce at the AVERAGE level or lower. Averaging down is the  function of socialism. And it follows that the AVERAGE itself drops as well when the  exceptional drop out.

  510. newsninja2012

    TonySuperiorHow about writing how Obama with no college transcripts to show, runs a country into the ground and then destroys healthcare by lying to  his own voters…

  511. ethossucks

    jabberwocky12 JennWhitfordPalumbo Then i provide to you such an intelligent response. Ethos achieves little in the way of furthering discussion and your ad hominem responses (granted to ad hominem posts) aren't exactly helping. Logically speaking, yes the article is false and the author has stated so in the featured comment section above, and yes this articles specific argument is against communism. But it is also a fallacy to not see socialist policy in communist actions. The logical points of the article (incendiary article promoting ethos aside) are as follows: When the work of one is given to another work ethic decreases, a decrease in widespread work ethic has the ability to ruin an entire country (my bad, class), and finally that liberal arguments against statements such as those made above far too often (as in almost always) resort to name calling or distracted side arguments over out of context quotations or concepts. So what do you choose? Continue the ethos like anyone who chooses not to put the effort into an actual logos argument, or answer this: How can this country remain stable despite a system that decreases work ethic? It is unarguable that this country is not fiscally stable when congress is required to vote on extending their budget practically every couple months from money that is not theirs (we the people and all that). however if you have a way for us to recover from this increasing drop in work ethic or don't believe that taking resources from those who succeed decreases work ethic I will be very attentive to your reply.

  512. vancekus

    jabberwocky12 Ok, you aren't missing the point. You are avoiding the concept and your excuse is that it is not a true story. Just like the fake students in the class, you are convinced, solely off of hopes and dreams, that this idea 'could' work. 

    You still think you're so rebellious and forward thinking. You are the actual conservative here. You are looking to Europe (if not europe then you're completely lost) as a place for the future of the states. Europe is backward, old, smug, outdated, and full of separatists. Wanting kings, queens, equality among the people, assistance provided by the government, elected officials to run businesses, etc. is the old way. America was the first place where people left the old world to start anew. You people are just crawling and dragging the old world back in. Go live in a European town for half a year and you'll understand why they can afford socialist programs.

  513. JefferyScism

    RalfAmokJennWhitfordPalumboCommunism and Socialism are two sides of the same process, communism is just a tad bit more state centered and socialism is more  dictator centered. BOTH take a socialistic approach to taking fom the people.

  514. BrandonCay

    GarrettStaatsjabberwocky12BrandonCay AGAIN you got some NERVE to about GRAMMER and SPELLING when cant SPELL KOOL-AID

  515. arlis4

    TinaLutherRoss You have to READ the entire story.  It says the story is not true but could be.  Maybe you should have had someone read it for you and share their opinion.  You both could have half of the information.  Oh, wait. You already do.

  516. wrgates26

    This story just like other comments and opinions from the Right Wing extremist is made up. Anything to try and take a shot at President Obama.

  517. BrandonCay

    tampajasonjabberwocky12GarrettStaatsBrandonCay LOL you area RACIST IDIOT BIGOT.  First off I do pay my TAXES and I pay FULL COMPANY TAXES cause I own my own PHONE COMPANIES you broke BASTARD.  and COO-AID must be the WHITE MAN DRINK cause its SPELLED KOOL-AID.  YOU A BIGGER MORON NOW for even trying to call me out by saying GROW UP.  I 35 and have ACCOMPLISHED MORE THAN YOU HAVE and I DONT KNOW YOU.  Get your BIGOT HEAD OUT YOUR ASS and look in the MIRROR and CONDESEND on the THAT BITCH.  Now as for you and the REST of CORPARATE who get SUBSIDIES (RICH FOLKS WELFARE) and TAX RELIEF BENEFITS (RECIEVEING), I'm sure your the ONE WHO IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF OUR GREAT COUNTRY. 


  518. ethossucks

    wrgates26 Interesting statement though I'm not sure it achieved what you desired. The author stated that the story was fiction but with factual concepts as he then goes in to describe. You however have simply increased the heuristics of conservatives that liberal responses only add ad hominem and poorly researched responses to discussions. Please stop this heuristic by in the future only posting thought out facts that emphasize logos and understanding over ethos and name blaming.

  519. BrandonCay

    CharlesWinfield So you must think JESUS is a SOCIALIST.  If not please explain to me how you think he is not.

  520. ethossucks

    BrandonCay CharlesWinfield You bet he is…Only he tends to have the resources to back up his proposed societal structure being the son of God and all, the US doesn't have so much to work with….

  521. DarioAlejandroBaez

    RalfAmokJennWhitfordPalumboSocialism is the same as communism. It's simply a slightly less totalitarian form of it.

  522. GarrettStaats

    drdude2525 JasonRains GarrettStaats ned46 I'm very sorry you are a slave to statistics and what you consider trends. "Government intervention in capitalism is no better that governmental intervention using socialism" Garrett Staats. Read what you wrote.

  523. GarrettStaats

    drdude2525 JasonRains ned46 And I am sorry you feel that you are doomed because of capitalism. I choose to make it what I want of it. The world is my oyster.

  524. DarioAlejandroBaez

    SeanBrodyBryandtuckerDanielScalawow should of seen this coming. 
    Liberals whipping out the old race card when no such thing was said. lol

  525. ethossucks

    DarioAlejandroBaez SeanBrody Bryandtucker DanielScala but ad hominem adds so much ethos to their argument….